Point of View in IF [second person/third person/first person]

So this is a bit of a tangent, but…

(Also, note that I’m going to be using the Latin and Greek terminology for this post. There are plenty of other conventions, most mutually incompatible. Consider yourselves warned.)

A lot of languages conflate the categories of tense and aspect. English is one of the few that doesn’t!

Tense establishes a reference point for the action. That reference point could be in the past, present, or future, or you can get more fine-grained with it: Lingála has separate tenses for “within the past day” and “before that”, for example, known as the recent and the distant tenses.

Aspect establishes how the action relates to the reference point. Is it a single event without further detail (aorist), or an ongoing thing with the reference point in the middle of it (imperfect), or is it over and done, and what we’re talking about at the time of the reference point is the aftereffects (perfect)?

In English, these can be combined in any combination you like: “did”, “do”, or “will” for tense, then “have” for perfect, “be” for imperfect, or nothing for aorist. So for example, “I eat”, “I am eating”, and “I have eaten” are all present tense, but three different aspects: aorist, imperfect, perfect. The past tense versions of those three would be “I ate”, “I was eating”, and “I had eaten”. And so on.

In Latin and Greek, though, they can’t be: you only have certain combinations available to pick from. So those combinations get particular names; the present perfect is the perfectus, “finished”, so the past perfect is the plus quam perfectus, “more than finished”. Throw in a few centuries for Latin to turn into French, and those become the “perfect” and “pluperfect”.

A related variable is mood, which again is sometimes an orthogonal thing (you can mix and match it) and is sometimes mutually exclusive. This is where you get things like subjunctive (for things that may not be true) and optative (for things that you wish would be true). Lingála has some especially fun ones here as well, like the gnomic (things that are universally true in all times and places, like “humans need to breathe”) and the ultimate (this wasn’t always true, but it’s true now, and it will always be true in the future, it can never be undone, like “Bob died”).

And then you get evidentiality: some languages mark verbs explicitly for how you know the information, if it’s firsthand, reported, and so on. And more! All of these categories usually overlap—gnomic could be taken as an evidentiality instead of a mood, for example—so often linguists now just call them “TAM” (tense, aspect, mood, and so on) to mean “all the details you can mark on a verb”.

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FWIW, the Infocom’s Enchanter user guide specifically states: “Enchanter usually acts as if your sentence begins with “I want to…”, although you shouldn’t actually type those words.”

So, at least in those early days, they considered the verbs to be in their base form (i.e. infinitive).

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I’d be interested in seeing this. Can you link it again or private message it to me?

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here it is:

HTH and
Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.

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That’s how Infocom explained the parser system to newcomers, but it doesn’t necessarily reflect how all English-speaking gamers – or even all Infocom people – thought. Other IF games documented themselves as “Give me commands…”

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I don’t mind 1st or 2nd, but third makes me feel less connected. Not enough to stop playing though. The use of 2nd person as addressing a fusion of both player and character is how I interpret most parser IF.

There are similarities to D&D, but differences as well.

DM’s naturally use 2nd person to describe settings or events to a player. In a way they are addressing the fused entity that is both player and character: “Too late, you see a charging orc! Unable to dodge, you take 4 damage from the Orc’s club.” DM’s also often use third person when addressing the party “Rolf has been knocked unconscious from the force of the orc’s attack.” DM’s use 1st person when in roles they are playing, but if your DM starts using 1st person for your character…you should probably back away from the table and make a swift exit.

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Yeah, have never heard the terms aspect or mood used in the contexts described above. Also, “I have eaten” parses as past tense to my ears and “I had eaten” as the kind of awkward construction you get when trying to handle tense for time travel.

Also, been distracted by all the technical grammar I was never taught in school, but I’ve never really thought human grammar applies to parsers or computer language in general. Natural language is filled with oddities that are hard to impossible to systematically define and nearly every rule has exceptions there’s really no way to handle other than rote memorization or coding up a ton of special cases, which early computers just didn’t have the spare memory/processing power for and which even today most programmers don’t have the patience to code up if there isn’t an existing language processing library they can use. As a result, parser speak rarely, if ever, resembles grammatical English and I would assume the same holds true for the vast majority of non-English games. Heck, some old games have awkward grammar even when just printing text and having no need to process it because space was at too much of a premium and they had to squeezze the most information into the fewest words.

It’s sort of past—in that the present perfect refers to a past event. But the key is that the reference point, the point you’re currently talking about, is in the present! I have eaten, and thus I’m not hungry now.

Adding “already” sometimes makes it clearer. The past version would be “he invited me out to lunch, but I had already eaten, so I suggested dinner instead”. The future tense version would be “I can be there by 11:30, I’ll have eaten something before that”.

But English, of course, doesn’t entirely let us mix-and-match these things freely. In the present tense, using the aorist aspect is distinctly unusual: saying “I eat” to mean “I am currently eating” is something I’d only expect from non-native speakers who are still figuring out the tense system. In the other tenses, “I ate” and “I will eat” are just fine.

And then, only certain of these are mandatory to mark. You always need to indicate if a verb is past or non-past, but you don’t have to indicate that it’s present vs future, if the context makes it clear enough: “my shift ends at 7 today” is just as fine as “my shift will end at 7 today”, as long as it’s currently before 7, but if it’s after 7, you have to say “my shift ended”.

It’s really fascinating!

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With all your specialist knowledge of this @Draconis I feel you’re well positioned to make some bizarre IF that deliberately mismatches all the tenses and reference points and such in crafty ways.

There could be mechanics related to this. It could be time-altering, where you manipulate things so the prose describes the situation differently to change people’s lot or solve mysteries, or… you get the idea.

The marketing copy is writing itself: ‘It’s like the Gostak on steroids!’

Just make sure to mention me when you collect numerous awards.

-Wade

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So much IF is about manipulating nouns…is it time for a game about manipulating verbs?

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Counterfeiting and Monkeying

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http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sds/9xx/940/ucbProjectGenie/Genie_Story_1965.tif

Thanks. I think “The Sumerian Game” is about two years earlier than that, assuming that you’d consider it a conversational interface. I’m not sure any old transcripts are available to the public, but the game itself exists, though only as a remake from original printouts.

There might be other examples…I’ll have to keep looking.

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