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It’s cool to follow this topic and the logic!
I’m curious about the 4 connected meta-games from the 2010 IFComp. Should they recommend each other? Other meta-games?
- Cold Iron
- Last Day of Summer
- The Life (and Death) of Doctor M
- Playing Games
2 Likes
Well, the first one shows the other three on the list.
Cold Iron (2011)
+-----------+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| FROM_GAME | TO_GAME |
+-----------+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Cold Iron | Last Day of Summer |
| Cold Iron | Playing Games |
| Cold Iron | The Life (and Deaths) of Doctor M |
| Cold Iron | The Warbler's Nest |
| Cold Iron | Mite |
| Cold Iron | The Faeries Of Haelstowne |
| Cold Iron | Violet |
| Cold Iron | A Primer On The Capture And Identification Of The Little Folk Of Myth And Legend |
| Cold Iron | Beware The Faerie Food You Eat |
| Cold Iron | Ralph |
+-----------+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
The other three are all producing “Reply Hazy” at the moment. (Coming across these is also really helpful, by the way, as they show where the current model is performing exceptionally poorly.) I’ll see what I can do, but in the meantime it wouldn’t hurt to tag them up a bit, if you’re familiar with the games.
3 Likes
Interestingly, there is more than one game on IFDB with this title.
1 Like
Thanks for mentioning that! There was a part I had “improved” that wasn’t watching for that possibility.
The revised output for Cold Iron (2011) is now posted above.
1 Like
The tinkering continues. The Magic 8-Ball is at Mark IIIb and probably reaching its limits, though tuning can still be improved. I’m currently working on customizing recommendations from a particular game for a specific person, which is a separate effort with the new nickname of “Crystal Ball.”
Following is a comparison of output from Crystal Ball for a well-known game, with personal preference taken into account at varying degrees. (As a test, the personalization was done for someone who has commented on this thread.) As you can see, the output changes pretty dramatically as the level of personalization is increased. If it seems to you that the recommendations improve as the emphasis on personalization increases, then please “raise your hand” and let me know – I can’t think of better evidence that it’s working on some level.
The person selected has played over half of the games shown at the strongest level of personalization, and rated the large majority of those played games at 4 or higher, which seems promising.
MYSTERY PERSON #1
A Mind Forever Voyaging (no personalization)
+-------------------------+---------------------------------+
| FROM_GAME | TO_GAME |
+-------------------------+---------------------------------+
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Trinity |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Wishbringer |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Jigsaw |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Stationfall |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Time: All Things Come to an End |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Planetfall |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Moments Out of Time |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Plundered Hearts |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Leather Goddesses of Phobos |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Lost New York |
+-------------------------+---------------------------------+
Example personalized (weak personalization)
+-------------------------+---------------------------------+
| FROM_GAME | TO_GAME |
+-------------------------+---------------------------------+
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Trinity |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Jigsaw |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Moments Out of Time |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Counterfeit Monkey |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Wishbringer |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Plundered Hearts |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Time: All Things Come to an End |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Lost New York |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Treasures of a Slaver's Kingdom |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | City of Secrets |
+-------------------------+---------------------------------+
Example personalized (moderate personalization)
+-------------------------+---------------------------------+
| FROM_GAME | TO_GAME |
+-------------------------+---------------------------------+
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Trinity |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Jigsaw |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Moments Out of Time |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Counterfeit Monkey |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Blue Lacuna |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | The Fire Tower |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Floatpoint |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Shade |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Lost New York |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Plundered Hearts |
+-------------------------+---------------------------------+
Example personalized (strong personalization)
+-------------------------+---------------------+
| FROM_GAME | TO_GAME |
+-------------------------+---------------------+
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Floatpoint |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Blue Lacuna |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Trinity |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | The Fire Tower |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Jigsaw |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Shade |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Moments Out of Time |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Counterfeit Monkey |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Glowgrass |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | The Moonlit Tower |
+-------------------------+---------------------+
Example personalized (very strong personalization)
+-------------------------+---------------------+
| FROM_GAME | TO_GAME |
+-------------------------+---------------------+
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Floatpoint |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | The Fire Tower |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Blue Lacuna |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Shade |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | The Moonlit Tower |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Glowgrass |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | So Far |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Trinity |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Jigsaw |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Counterfeit Monkey |
+-------------------------+---------------------+
Example personalized (extremely strong personalization)
+-------------------------+--------------------+
| FROM_GAME | TO_GAME |
+-------------------------+--------------------+
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Floatpoint |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | The Fire Tower |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Blue Lacuna |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | The Moonlit Tower |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | So Far |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Glowgrass |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Shade |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Metamorphoses |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Trinity |
| A Mind Forever Voyaging | Jigsaw |
+-------------------------+--------------------+
3 Likes
Oops! Some problems with the proposed test: First, Mystery Person #1 did not actually post on this thread – it was a related thread. Second, that person did not (as of the start of September) give a rating for A Mind Forever Voyaging, so there would be no basis for evaluating the quality of the recommendations. I’ll leave it up in case that person shows up on this thread and has recently played AMFV (or tries it soon).
Following are some repeats of the exercise with those errors corrected and new mystery people.
MYSTERY PERSON #2
In this case, the mystery person has played only a few of the games on the most personalized list, but the top two recommendations are among them, and both were given scores of 4 or higher.
The Impossible Bottle (no personalization)
+-----------------------+-----------------------------+
| FROM_GAME | TO_GAME |
+-----------------------+-----------------------------+
| The Impossible Bottle | The Impossible Stairs |
| The Impossible Bottle | Tethered |
| The Impossible Bottle | Pas De Deux |
| The Impossible Bottle | LAKE Adventure |
| The Impossible Bottle | Brain Guzzlers from Beyond! |
| The Impossible Bottle | Zozzled |
| The Impossible Bottle | Photopia |
| The Impossible Bottle | Six |
| The Impossible Bottle | Grooverland |
| The Impossible Bottle | Rover's Day Out |
+-----------------------+-----------------------------+
Example personalized (weak personalization)
+-----------------------+----------------------------------------------------------+
| FROM_GAME | TO_GAME |
+-----------------------+----------------------------------------------------------+
| The Impossible Bottle | LAKE Adventure |
| The Impossible Bottle | Rover's Day Out |
| The Impossible Bottle | Tethered |
| The Impossible Bottle | Pas De Deux |
| The Impossible Bottle | And Then You Come to a House Not Unlike the Previous One |
| The Impossible Bottle | Babyface |
| The Impossible Bottle | Kaged |
| The Impossible Bottle | The Impossible Stairs |
| The Impossible Bottle | La Princesse spéculaire |
| The Impossible Bottle | The Virtual Grand National |
+-----------------------+----------------------------------------------------------+
Example personalized (moderate personalization)
+-----------------------+----------------------------------------------------------+
| FROM_GAME | TO_GAME |
+-----------------------+----------------------------------------------------------+
| The Impossible Bottle | LAKE Adventure |
| The Impossible Bottle | The Impossible Stairs |
| The Impossible Bottle | Babyface |
| The Impossible Bottle | Tethered |
| The Impossible Bottle | La Princesse spéculaire |
| The Impossible Bottle | Pas De Deux |
| The Impossible Bottle | The Virtual Grand National |
| The Impossible Bottle | Rover's Day Out |
| The Impossible Bottle | D'ARKUN |
| The Impossible Bottle | Killing Machine Loves Slime Prince |
+-----------------------+----------------------------------------------------------+
Example personalized (strong personalization)
+-----------------------+----------------------------------------------------------+
| FROM_GAME | TO_GAME |
+-----------------------+----------------------------------------------------------+
| The Impossible Bottle | LAKE Adventure |
| The Impossible Bottle | The Impossible Stairs |
| The Impossible Bottle | La Princesse spéculaire |
| The Impossible Bottle | Babyface |
| The Impossible Bottle | Tethered |
| The Impossible Bottle | Pas De Deux |
| The Impossible Bottle | The Virtual Grand National |
| The Impossible Bottle | D'ARKUN |
| The Impossible Bottle | Killing Machine Loves Slime Prince |
| The Impossible Bottle | Rover's Day Out |
+-----------------------+----------------------------------------------------------+
Example personalized (very strong personalization)
+-----------------------+----------------------------------------------------------+
| FROM_GAME | TO_GAME |
+-----------------------+----------------------------------------------------------+
| The Impossible Bottle | LAKE Adventure |
| The Impossible Bottle | The Impossible Stairs |
| The Impossible Bottle | Babyface |
| The Impossible Bottle | La Princesse spéculaire |
| The Impossible Bottle | The Virtual Grand National |
| The Impossible Bottle | Tethered |
| The Impossible Bottle | Pas De Deux |
| The Impossible Bottle | D'ARKUN |
| The Impossible Bottle | Killing Machine Loves Slime Prince |
| The Impossible Bottle | Rover's Day Out |
+-----------------------+----------------------------------------------------------+
Example personalized (extremely strong personalization)
+-----------------------+----------------------------------------------------------+
| FROM_GAME | TO_GAME |
+-----------------------+----------------------------------------------------------+
| The Impossible Bottle | LAKE Adventure |
| The Impossible Bottle | Babyface |
| The Impossible Bottle | The Impossible Stairs |
| The Impossible Bottle | La Princesse spéculaire |
| The Impossible Bottle | The Virtual Grand National |
| The Impossible Bottle | Tethered |
| The Impossible Bottle | Pas De Deux |
| The Impossible Bottle | D'ARKUN |
| The Impossible Bottle | Killing Machine Loves Slime Prince |
| The Impossible Bottle | Rover's Day Out |
+-----------------------+----------------------------------------------------------+
MYSTERY PERSON #3
In this case, the mystery person again shows as having rated only a few games on the final list, but all were given 5s.
Cragne Manor (no personalization)
+--------------+---------------------------------------------------+
| FROM_GAME | TO_GAME |
+--------------+---------------------------------------------------+
| Cragne Manor | Lydia's Heart |
| Cragne Manor | The King of Shreds and Patches |
| Cragne Manor | Dead Cities |
| Cragne Manor | Castronegro Blues |
| Cragne Manor | The Surprising Case of Brian Timmons |
| Cragne Manor | How Prince Quisborne the Feckless Shook His Title |
| Cragne Manor | Ecdysis |
| Cragne Manor | Curses |
| Cragne Manor | Praser 5 |
| Cragne Manor | Theatre |
+--------------+---------------------------------------------------+
Example personalized (weak personalization)
+--------------+---------------------------------------------------+
| FROM_GAME | TO_GAME |
+--------------+---------------------------------------------------+
| Cragne Manor | Lydia's Heart |
| Cragne Manor | How Prince Quisborne the Feckless Shook His Title |
| Cragne Manor | The King of Shreds and Patches |
| Cragne Manor | Dead Cities |
| Cragne Manor | Praser 5 |
| Cragne Manor | Curses |
| Cragne Manor | So Far |
| Cragne Manor | Castronegro Blues |
| Cragne Manor | The Surprising Case of Brian Timmons |
| Cragne Manor | Worlds Apart |
+--------------+---------------------------------------------------+
Example personalized (moderate personalization)
+--------------+---------------------------------------------------+
| FROM_GAME | TO_GAME |
+--------------+---------------------------------------------------+
| Cragne Manor | Worlds Apart |
| Cragne Manor | How Prince Quisborne the Feckless Shook His Title |
| Cragne Manor | Praser 5 |
| Cragne Manor | Blighted Isle |
| Cragne Manor | So Far |
| Cragne Manor | Curses |
| Cragne Manor | The King of Shreds and Patches |
| Cragne Manor | Counterfeit Monkey |
| Cragne Manor | Not Just an Ordinary Ballerina |
| Cragne Manor | Lydia's Heart |
+--------------+---------------------------------------------------+
Example personalized (strong personalization)
+--------------+---------------------------------------------------+
| FROM_GAME | TO_GAME |
+--------------+---------------------------------------------------+
| Cragne Manor | Blighted Isle |
| Cragne Manor | Worlds Apart |
| Cragne Manor | Praser 5 |
| Cragne Manor | So Far |
| Cragne Manor | How Prince Quisborne the Feckless Shook His Title |
| Cragne Manor | Curses |
| Cragne Manor | Counterfeit Monkey |
| Cragne Manor | Not Just an Ordinary Ballerina |
| Cragne Manor | Spellbreaker |
| Cragne Manor | The King of Shreds and Patches |
+--------------+---------------------------------------------------+
Example personalized (very strong personalization)
+--------------+---------------------------------------------------+
| FROM_GAME | TO_GAME |
+--------------+---------------------------------------------------+
| Cragne Manor | Blighted Isle |
| Cragne Manor | Worlds Apart |
| Cragne Manor | So Far |
| Cragne Manor | Praser 5 |
| Cragne Manor | How Prince Quisborne the Feckless Shook His Title |
| Cragne Manor | Counterfeit Monkey |
| Cragne Manor | Curses |
| Cragne Manor | Trinity |
| Cragne Manor | Not Just an Ordinary Ballerina |
| Cragne Manor | Goldilocks is a FOX! |
+--------------+---------------------------------------------------+
Example personalized (extremely strong personalization)
+--------------+---------------------------------------------------+
| FROM_GAME | TO_GAME |
+--------------+---------------------------------------------------+
| Cragne Manor | Blighted Isle |
| Cragne Manor | Worlds Apart |
| Cragne Manor | So Far |
| Cragne Manor | Trinity |
| Cragne Manor | Deadline Enchanter |
| Cragne Manor | Praser 5 |
| Cragne Manor | Counterfeit Monkey |
| Cragne Manor | How Prince Quisborne the Feckless Shook His Title |
| Cragne Manor | Goldilocks is a FOX! |
| Cragne Manor | Shuffling Around |
+--------------+---------------------------------------------------+
3 Likes
I dunno if this is in the spirit of the thread, but I’m guessing Brian might be number one, I might be number two, and Andrew might be number three? If so, feels like the personalization is having an impact!
It might be interesting to see how the same game plays out differently with different people’s personalizations at play.
3 Likes
The rules of the game are that you can only guess whether a mystery person is yourself. (I can’t give out more information without potentially biasing the outcome.) However, I am pleased to say that you are Mystery Person #2! I guess that’s a point for Crystal Ball.
I know that you said you’ve left a lot of games unrated. Are there others on the most personalized list that you’ve played? If so, then:
-
What would you rate them? (Or: What have you rated them, if you’ve rated them since the start of September?)
-
Do you see similarities of note between the games chosen and the original? If so, are they relevant to you?
-
Are any of the personalized recommendations on your current wishlist?
2 Likes
I’m encouraged by the first success, so here are some more tests. For brevity’s sake, I’ll just provide default and maximally personalized outputs.
MYSTERY PERSON #4
In this case, the person selected has rated about half of the games recommended with personalization, all at 4 or higher.
The Absence of Miriam Lane (no personalization)
+----------------------------+----------------------------------------+
| FROM_GAME | TO_GAME |
+----------------------------+----------------------------------------+
| The Absence of Miriam Lane | 16 Ways to Kill a Vampire at McDonalds |
| The Absence of Miriam Lane | A Murder in Fairyland |
| The Absence of Miriam Lane | Beneath Fenwick |
| The Absence of Miriam Lane | Black Sheep |
| The Absence of Miriam Lane | Cactus Blue Motel |
| The Absence of Miriam Lane | we, the remainder |
| The Absence of Miriam Lane | Make It Good |
| The Absence of Miriam Lane | Horror in the Darkness |
| The Absence of Miriam Lane | Mystery Manor |
| The Absence of Miriam Lane | 4 Alice : Lorange Journey |
+----------------------------+----------------------------------------+
The Absence of Miriam Lane (extremely strong personalization)
+----------------------------+----------------------------------------+
| FROM_GAME | TO_GAME |
+----------------------------+----------------------------------------+
| The Absence of Miriam Lane | Beneath Fenwick |
| The Absence of Miriam Lane | Black Sheep |
| The Absence of Miriam Lane | Cactus Blue Motel |
| The Absence of Miriam Lane | we, the remainder |
| The Absence of Miriam Lane | 16 Ways to Kill a Vampire at McDonalds |
| The Absence of Miriam Lane | The Master of the Land |
| The Absence of Miriam Lane | A Murder in Fairyland |
| The Absence of Miriam Lane | The Missing Ring |
| The Absence of Miriam Lane | Christminster |
| The Absence of Miriam Lane | Lux |
+----------------------------+----------------------------------------+
MYSTERY PERSON #5
In this case, the person chosen has rated only one game on the most personalized list, but did give that game a 5.
The People's Glorious Revolutionary Text Adventure Game (no personalization)
+---------------------------------------------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
| FROM_GAME | TO_GAME |
+---------------------------------------------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
| The People's Glorious Revolutionary Text Adventure Game | Escapade! |
| The People's Glorious Revolutionary Text Adventure Game | You Will Select a Decision |
| The People's Glorious Revolutionary Text Adventure Game | Gigantomania |
| The People's Glorious Revolutionary Text Adventure Game | In a Manor of Speaking |
| The People's Glorious Revolutionary Text Adventure Game | A Tale of the Cave |
| The People's Glorious Revolutionary Text Adventure Game | Treasures of a Slaver's Kingdom |
| The People's Glorious Revolutionary Text Adventure Game | Tex Bonaventure and the Temple of the Water of Life |
| The People's Glorious Revolutionary Text Adventure Game | Square Circle |
| The People's Glorious Revolutionary Text Adventure Game | Yon Astounding Castle! of some sort |
| The People's Glorious Revolutionary Text Adventure Game | The War On New Year's |
+---------------------------------------------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
The People's Glorious Revolutionary Text Adventure Game (extremely strong personalization)
+---------------------------------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| FROM_GAME | TO_GAME |
+---------------------------------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| The People's Glorious Revolutionary Text Adventure Game | Escapade! |
| The People's Glorious Revolutionary Text Adventure Game | You Will Select a Decision |
| The People's Glorious Revolutionary Text Adventure Game | Dinner Bell |
| The People's Glorious Revolutionary Text Adventure Game | In a Manor of Speaking |
| The People's Glorious Revolutionary Text Adventure Game | To Hell in a Hamper |
| The People's Glorious Revolutionary Text Adventure Game | Treasures of a Slaver's Kingdom |
| The People's Glorious Revolutionary Text Adventure Game | Pick Up the Phone Booth and Aisle |
| The People's Glorious Revolutionary Text Adventure Game | The Dream-Trap of Zzar |
| The People's Glorious Revolutionary Text Adventure Game | Downtown Tokyo, Present Day |
| The People's Glorious Revolutionary Text Adventure Game | Yon Astounding Castle! of some sort |
+---------------------------------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
3 Likes
Yeah, I’ve played and reviewed LAKE Adventure, Babyface, Impossible Stairs, and D’Arkun - though I didn’t put a star rating on Impossible Stairs. I liked all of them at the 4-5 star level; so they’re good recommendations on that front. I’m not sure where the horror link from TIB is coming from, though - Babyface and D’Arkun don’t feel very connected to me. LAKE Adventure and of course TIS do feel reasonably similar.
Tethered and Pas de Deux are both by the same author as TIB; I’ve played them both, but not reviewed or rated them, and liked them OK, so those are solid recs too.
I’m not really familiar with the others, except knowing that the Pacian game is in the same world as Forsaken Denizen, which I liked, and I’ve heard Rover’s Day Out is good!
2 Likes
Another factor is likely that I heavily tag all of my games on IFDB, which gives them more opportunity to appear
2 Likes
Also—the first two of these make sense to me, but I’m not sure what the connection is with Counterfeit Monkey.
1 Like
The unofficial slogan of every model I’ve built seems to be: “Hey, have I told you about Counterfeit Monkey? I think you’re gonna love it!”
4 Likes
A quick question for everyone about “oddball” results: Is the number one driver of that perception the lack of a match by genre?
At present, genre is part of the model, but results are not restricted to the same genre. The state of genre data is such that I don’t think it could be reliably used for the purpose, but if everyone thinks that should be how it works, I can certainly experiment with that to see whether it makes for an overall improvement.
I think that the best kind of recommendations should…
- always match by genre
- match by genre sometimes but allow for non-genre matches that have other commonality
0
voters
1 Like
Am I Mystery Person #4? If so, I think the 8-Ball did a good job finding games I like, and I can see the commonalities in the second list (including for the games I haven’t played, based on their IFDB entries)—the majority of the games are parser-like choice games, often with female protagonists, mystery/investigation aspects, and/or a bit of a surreal or magical realist vibe. (It’s interesting that it seems to have picked up a lot of these choice games with parser elements even in the absence of tags related to those elements, though I’m adding those tags now anyway.)
I think everything on there has at least two of the characteristics in that list, which I think makes them all reasonable recommendations for Miriam Lane (which has all of them) even though in some cases the vibes are very different.
3 Likes
Yes, you are Mystery Person #4!
Just to clarify, when you say that the 8-Ball did a good job of finding games you like, do you mean on the first (default) list or the second (personalized) list?
That makes two points for Crystal Ball, and two out of four total (excluding the flawed test for MP #1) for the test so far. It seems like personalization is working to at least some degree.
I’ll be very interested to see if anyone claims the titles of MP #3 and MP #5.
Also: If anyone wants to volunteer to test Crystal Ball, just provide a game (one not covered so far above) and your IFDB username if it’s not obviously linked to your name(s) here.
2 Likes
Sorry for being unclear—I meant the personalized list! The games that are on the default list and not the personalized list are mostly games I don’t know anything about.
Edit: I realize now I said 8-Ball when I meant Crystal Ball—sorry, I’m a bit tired today.
I’m aware I haven’t rated any games yet (beyond marking them as played), but we might as well try it to make sure nothing breaks, especially for new users who are trying it out.
P-Tux7
Worlds Apart
If you haven’t rated any games, then the results with personalization would be the same as the results without.
You can still suggest titles for the Magic 8-Ball, but Worlds Apart has already been covered. (It was requested by bg early on.)