I was surprised this morning by a new message that appears on every page of intfiction.org:
Following the link to Discourse, I see that they’re now using some really weird (presumably non-standard?) browser features that aren’t supported by browsers running on old operating systems. In my case, I’m using the latest version of Firefox that runs on Windows 7 which, according to one source, is still used by 20% of internet users.
So, I’ve been given 10 days notice to race out and buy a new computer just so that I can use intfiction.org. Well, that ain’t gonna happen, so goodbye folks.It was nice knowing you.
Well, that’s disappointing. It would have been nice if Discourse maintained support for old browsers, or at least gave more warning to people who don’t follow the Discourse announcements board. I get the appeal of flashy modern CSS, but the point of a forum (over something like a Discord server) is that it also serves as an archive of old content, and you want archives to be as easily accessible as possible.
That said, Firefox is about to end all support for Windows 7, and I believe Chrome already has, which is a bad sign for a web browser—that’s an application that you’ll really want security patches for! There are some forks of these browsers that are explicitly made to maintain Windows 7 support (Thorium, R3dfox, etc), and I’d recommend switching to one of those if you can. I believe the new version of Discourse should work fine on them.
The link itself confirms browser forks should work:
For users of Windows 7 and XP who are unable to update Chrome/Firefox, you may want to consider a third-party chromium fork such as Supermium or Thorium
As Daniel mentioned, there’s r3dfox, a Firefox fork.
At some point, you’re probably going to have problems with a lot of websites though. Even if r3dfox etc are still continually developed, and even if they have excellent compatibility, more and more sites are checking for certain browsers via useragents.
One of my online banks forces me to use Chrome/Edge, for example, and I’m on an up-to-date version of Firefox!
Didn’t Windows 7 reach end of life in 2020? Even paid Extended Security Update ended in 2023! There must be lots of software which for which you can’t run up to date versions. And once the OS’s root certificates expire you’ll be in a lot of trouble doing anything on the internet. You don’t need to buy a new computer, but you should consider changing to an up to date OS.
(I’m getting nagged that Windows 10 support will end in Oct this year, despite being described as the “last version of Windows” when it originally came out. My CPU isn’t supported by Windows 11, so I’m going to have to decide whether to switch to desktop Linux or buy some new hardware. But I’m not going to just keep running an unsupported OS for many more years.)
And Firefox only has 2-5% of global browser usage share (15% of desktop). Firefox 115 (the last version for Windows 7) is 0.2%
No, they’re neither weird nor non-standard. They’re new, but have also been widely supported since 2023 (the last browser, as usual, to add support for them was Safari).
It’s worth noting that if you decide to upgrade from Windows 7 to Windows 10, you don’t actually need to register it.
Microsoft still has it for download:
The only thing that Microsoft does to unregistered versions now is disable themes/wallpaper customization and watermarks the desktop. There might be a click-through “set up” screen occasionally too. But they don’t lock the entire system like they used to.
@Danni (I’m getting nagged that Windows 10 support will end in Oct this year, despite being described as the “last version of Windows” when it originally came out. My CPU isn’t supported by Windows 11, so I’m going to have to decide whether to switch to desktop Linux or buy some new hardware. But I’m not going to just keep running an unsupported OS for many more years.)
It’s just Microsoft ending support for Windows 10. Google and Mozilla (and most other app developers) will probably keep supporting it long after that, since ~50% of PCs still have it.
Speaking of which…
@Warrigal Windows 7 which, according to one source, is still used by 20% of internet users
It’s more like 2% according to Google, which cites Wikipedia, which cites this.
That gives me a slight hope that the collective people of the world might call Microsoft’s bluff and basically force them to either support W10 for longer, or drop the install requirements for W11 (I don’t think W11 has a core requirement of a newer CPU, it’s just for their “trusted CPU” stuff. Allegedly it’s really for DRM.) For comparison, I think Windows XP was only at 33% when it reached EOL.
It might be possible to bypass the TPM 2.0 check when updating to W11. I might try that.
You can try running it on an unsupported system (as you noted, anything without TPM 2.0 CPU).
I tried it on my refurbished ~2012 Thinkpad, which ran Windows 10 fine, and the results weren’t good. It was freezing within less than an hour of use, though that may not be due to TPM and could be due to other drivers.
I’m going to have to decide whether to switch to desktop Linux or buy some new hardware.
At this point, I think anyone with basic computer skills can use Linux as easily as Windows (and I consider myself just a bit above basic).
Linux performance is usually much better than Windows, and Linux apps are easier to install than ever.
At some point you’ll need Windows though, probably. People used to recommend dual booting (ie. installing Linux and Windows on a single hard drive).
However, SSDs are incredibly cheap nowadays. Now you can just swap your Windows and Linux hard drives depending on what you want to run at any given time (or even run Linux from an external USB SSD if you have a system with USB 3.0).
Sorry for that. We didn’t update the forum software for a couple of months, if we’d done so sooner the warning would’ve been displayed earlier. I think Discourse intended to give everyone about a 3 month warning.
FWIW, Firefox supports all the new features except relativecolours (whatever that is). So, Discourse wants me to buy a new computer just for the colours? Like I said, that’s not gonna happen.
I took a look at Supermium and Thorium. The former is a huge download (169 MB). The latter was the one claiming that 20% of internet users still use Windows 7. That may have been true when they started on the project, but I doubt that’s still the case.
I then took a look at r3dfox (thanks for the tip @Draconis), which is a much smaller download at 72 MB for the 64-bit installer. Very fast download and install and works like a charm. I don’t like the Chrome-like UI, but I might be able to change that. I’ve imported my bookmarks and I can now use intfiction without the warning message.
Apparently, there’s also a clean html theme for Discourse that doesn’t use these new features, but I couldn’t find it. Would it be one of the alternate themes?
The link makes it clear that the “clean html theme” (if it’s the same as the “basic html view”) doesn’t actually let you post messages, or anything else.
I find it ludicrous that they won’t support basic HTML interaction. Got an old device? Got JS turned off? Using a text-only browser for assistive reasons? Sorry, you can’t log into Discourse because you might not be able to see the relative colours.
Of the 4 vital new features they have listed, 3 are just presentational. If your browser doesn’t support subgrids or relative colours, you’ll just see a messed up site. It will work just fine. But for some reason they won’t let you make the choice to see that, they will just lock you out.
It’s also partially affecting me - new pop up today - who uses an old (but latest generation, and totally up to date with iOS security updates) iPod touch. I’m heavily sedated now and bed bound for most of the time. I don’t need a smartphone, given my circumstances. The iPod touch was perfect for me. I bought 2 new models the day it was cancelled in 2022. I still have a spare waiting.
Fortunately for me I can still access the forum fully on my laptop and iPad. But my iPod touch has been my main way of reading it for the past umpteen years, including when I’m most ill. And while I will probably have to switch to an iPhone in future, it’s not something I’m ecstatic about. I won’t be using its phoning.
10 days notice is far too short. Even if I understand why it happened.
It’s definitely not a great idea to be running Windows 7 these days, but at the same time I imagine that if you’re doing that then you probably have your reasons - and probably don’t want to install a new operating system on that machine.
My recommendation actually would be to get a new computer, but not by dropping a ton of money on it. With support for Windows 10 ending later this year and Windows 11 having a bunch of additional requirements, there’s a lot of perfectly good hardware being ditched right now. You can pick up a laptop/desktop with respectable specs for very little money, and if you ask around someone may give you an old one for free. Installing an easy-to-use OS with minimal system requirements such as Ubuntu MATE on that machine would give you something more modern to try out (and perhaps eventually switch over to) at minimal/no expense while leaving your current device untouched.
So, I love trying out offbeat browsers and learning about forks that I’d never heard of. I know this doesn’t much solve your situation (we need you here, Garry!) and I have to roll my eyes at Discourse’s choices but I appreciate you writing about what other browsers you have tried. r3dfox seems nice!
I’ve actually got a Windows 11 laptop, but I haven’t migrated to it yet, as that’s a major undertaking.
Apart from that, I refuse to let those money-grabbing multi-nationals force me to buy a new computer when there’s nothing wrong with the one I’ve got. This is forced obsolescence and a burden on the planet’s limited resources, just to make the rich shareholders richer. I’ll upgrade when I’m good and ready, which will be sometime after ParserComp. (End of rant.)
It looks like the compatibility changes won’t take effect until we upgrade the forum software, and while we’ll have to do it eventually, it doesn’t have to be immediately on July 1st.
What do you all think would be a good amount of time to let people upgrade their browsers, find workarounds, and so on? I agree that ten days is too short.
I know people get annoyed when they’re told “you should switch to Linux”, but that’s actually a really good reason to and it’s part of the reason I switched. I know it isn’t for everyone and viability depends heavily on what software you use, but honestly there are linux equivalents for most useful software. Often times (though not always) it’s better than what you can get commmercially, and doesn’t typically suffer the churn caused by “changes for changes sake” that software as a product generates. My primary computer doesn’t have ads, doesn’t spy on me, only updates when I want it to, only does what I want it to, and the hardware is 12 years old. I have a two year old macbook given to me by a previous employer that sits collecting dust most of the time.
Edit: The primary reason newer Windows won’t run on older hardware is due to newer TPM specifications and is done for purposes of security.*
No, I totally get it. I’m done buying new machines myself. Windows 11 is an environmental disaster, and I was already pretty peeved about the way Windows 10 was forced on devices that couldn’t run it (though that was partly because I was working in an electronics shop at the time and had to handle the returns).
Edit: Having just spotted Mike’s reply, it’s possibly worth mentioning that switching to Linux has also let me keep using hardware from 2012. If you’ve already got a new laptop lined up then I wouldn’t necessarily make the switch now, but it’s an option to keep in mind if Microsoft insists you bin that one when Windows 12 rolls around.
I’d recommend at least two months. Not least because some people may be offline here for a while and find out even later than now.
As for me it’s not a browser issue, but hardware. My device can’t go newer than iOS 15, and Discourse will block that soon. I am not going to buy an iPhone for this, not least while I still have a spare iPod touch waiting to switch to from my current one soon. I will just not be able to read the forum on my iPod touch when the change is made. So will be on here much less, but still tuning in at times on my iPad or laptop.
It’s glaring that the iPod touch isn’t even listed on the Discourse information page about devices stuck on iOS 15 which won’t work with the upgraded forum. It mentions other devices more than 9 years old. My iPod touch was bought new from Apple in 2022 and was a model released in 2019, just 6 years ago. It has the latest iOS 15 version in it, from March this year. It can’t run iOS 16. I think this is a really really bad move by Discourse. I get that things become obsolete. I get that security issues are a concern. But my device is still pretty new, and totally up to date with security OS releases. And they will block it for non essential display things? Not happy.
