IME, young adults does mean 13-18 age group. At least in libraries, it does.
2 Likes
Yes, I agree that in libraries the “young adult section” means something different.
In this case it does look like both games tagged “young adult protagonist” feature teenage PCs, though.
3 Likes
Just wanted to say that I’ve taken a break for a few days on implementing tag suggestions but should be able to do more tomorrow.
I do plan on adding ‘xyzzy nominated’ to every xyzzy category and Inform to all Inform 6 and Inform 7 games. I’m also planning on changing ‘choice’ and ‘cyoa’ to ‘choice-based’, which will affect hundreds of games. These feel a little controversial so I’ll sit on that until morning in case anyone wants to yell ‘I object!’.
7 Likes
One for the pile – mirror and mirrors.
-Wade
2 Likes
That all sounds reasonable to me, at least!
Honestly, I wish I could help with the tag cleanup (actually help, rather than just dumping a long list of stuff on you), but I don’t really have any interest in non-tag-related IFDB admin duties (and even if I did, I don’t know if IFDB is looking to add more admins right now anyway). Which is to say, thanks again for plugging away at all this, because it seems like a lot for one person.
4 Likes
I really think that it’s worth a pause here before going beyond elimination of obvious misspellings and insignificant variations on the same phrase (e.g. hyphenation or capitalization).
The thing about tags is: They aren’t a category system. They aren’t centrally-administered. They aren’t supposed to be any one person’s view of the world. In their present iteration, they don’t even have formal definitions. They are, to repeat myself, “by their nature free-form, uncontrolled and messy.” (And that’s fine!)
One-off cleanup efforts serve little purpose in the long run. For example, mathbrush just merged appleii – which I agree is a good thing – but it’s still possible to apply an appleii tag. Unless a system for locking out merged synonyms is implemented, such that anyone entering appleii will get a notice that their tag has been automatically converted to Apple II, the more productive effort is in ensuring the presence of the “approved” tag of Apple II than in erasing someone’s “nonstandard” usage.
To support such a system, there would need to be a formal committee to manage tags. That committee would have to do things like decide the true meaning of the tag, e.g. “The Apple II tag means that an Apple II emulator is needed to run this work. For related tags with different meanings, see: originally released for Apple II, Apple II native version available, simulates Apple II interface, in-game Apple II object.” and these definitions would need to be publicly inspectable.
There would also have to be a process for deciding which tags get promoted to the set of managed tags – a process that acknowledges that the committee-defined meaning may differ from what any previous user had in mind when applying the tag. For example, there might be a notice sent to all users that their tags X and Y have been converted to a new standardized tag Z with such-and-such formal definition, so that they can at least decide whether something important was lost in the translation and come up with one or more new tags to use for their original purposes. It might be better to provide a warning of the proposed change with a 30, 60 or 90-day wait until the mass conversion takes place, to gather public commentary.
Those are just seed ideas. If a formal committee is set up, it would be the committee’s job to decide policy. I’m just wary of mass changes in the current state of existing tags. A few of the proposed merges (e.g. cyoa to choice-based) seem like they could eliminate undiscovered nuances that are useful to the people who originally applied them.
2 Likes
Having 90 day waiting periods, committee meetings about tags and mass emails sent out to all fan users sound like some of the worst user experiences I can imagine. I’m happy to leave CYOA alone as an alternative!
Ejoyce previously messaged me with a list of some typos which I’ll still go through and post on here. And we can actually ban tags! I’ve only been banning big tags that have been merged and leaving infrequent typos like Appleii alone.
5 Likes
In general, I agree that we don’t want to overdo tag merging, and in the process, lose nuance or make tags that were previously accurate, inaccurate. That said, CYOA and choice-based are tags that could apply to lots and lots of games, and I could see it being helpful to standardize it. You could consider making a poll on the forum to see what people want to do. (Or on IFDB, though you’d have to set it up weirdly. Like vote for game X to mean “CYOA” and vote for game Y to mean “choice-based” or game Z to leave it alone.) Or you could link to an intfiction.org poll from IFDB.
I don’t know if there are any games on IFDB that are literally CYOA (as in, associated with the actual book series that goes by that name).
4 Likes
I think that it’s not really a priority to ban typoed tags now that we have the autocomplete feature, which should reduce the likelihood of anyone tagging anything “appleii” as the existing “Apple II” tag will pop up as a suggestion before they get there.
While I think merging tags is something to be careful about, I also think that the “CYOA” vs. “choice-based” thing reflects a terminology shift within the community that’s not wildly controversial at this juncture (though it’s understandable for someone who doesn’t have much interest in choice-based IF to have not noticed it happening). It’s worth noting that this shift/potential merge was first brought up in this thread on October 9 and in that time nobody has registered an actual objection to it, as opposed to raising the possibility that someone might object.
3 Likes
I think it’s also been suggested that IFDB have an actual field for parser/choice (and I’m guessing there would also need to be a parser-choice hybrid option). If that were implemented, the tag wording might not matter as much. Although it’d be a lot of work to fill in the field for all the games.
EDIT: Ok, I guess it was actually a suggestion to be able to search by parser/non-parser, which isn’t exactly the same thing. I did think there was a suggestion for a field, but I don’t see it when I search.
3 Likes
I have no objection to the consolidation, but, even if I did, I would be wary of introducing complex organizational systems to this process.
3 Likes
My point is that the people who invented and/or adopted the tag aren’t necessarily here or even aware of the potential change. It doesn’t seem responsible to delete their input unilaterally.
Over 150 people have made use of cyoa as of September 1 this year:
potentially affected users
+----------------------+------+----------+
| name | tag | count(*) |
+----------------------+------+----------+
| A. I. Wulf | CYOA | 2 |
| Adea | CYOA | 1 |
| albie | cyoa | 1 |
| alyson | CYOA | 1 |
| Andrew Stone | CYOA | 1 |
| Andrew Watt | CYOA | 1 |
| Aniki | CYOA | 1 |
| Anya Johanna DeNiro | cyoa | 1 |
| Arenhart | CYOA | 1 |
| ArloElm | CYOA | 1 |
| auraes | CYOA | 1 |
| autumnc | cyoa | 3 |
| AvB | cyoa | 2 |
| azablocki | cyoa | 1 |
| Bad Dog Studios | cyoa | 1 |
| Benji Bright | CYOA | 1 |
| Brett | CYOA | 1 |
| Bruno Dias | CYOA | 1 |
| Cataphrak | CYOA | 1 |
| chairbender | CYOA | 1 |
| Charles Parkes | CYOA | 2 |
| Chris Conley | CYOA | 1 |
| Christina Nordlander | CYOA | 1 |
| Christoph Gutjahr | CYOA | 4 |
| CMG | CYOA | 2 |
| CrumpleNews | cyoa | 1 |
| crypto | cyoa | 1 |
| dacharya64 | CYOA | 1 |
| daelsepara | cyoa | 7 |
| Dannii | CYOA | 1 |
| Date Night | CYOA | 1 |
| David T. Marchand | CYOA | 2 |
| David Welbourn | CYOA | 4 |
| David Yates | CYOA | 1 |
| DB | CYOA | 1 |
| DeciduousDJ | CYOA | 1 |
| DeeWodecock | CYOA | 1 |
| dgtziea | cyoa | 1 |
| Doug Orleans | cyoa | 1 |
| dtaggart919 | CYOA | 1 |
| dutchmule | CYOA | 2 |
| Edward Lacey | CYOA | 3 |
| Emily Short | CYOA | 4 |
| Enola | CYOA | 1 |
| Eriorg | CYOA | 3 |
| Exalted Text | CYOA | 1 |
| Felicity Banks | CYOA | 1 |
| Felix Pleșoianu | CYOA | 6 |
| fireh9lly | cyoa | 1 |
| fortis | cyoa | 1 |
| Fredrik Ramsberg | cyoa | 1 |
| Galena | CYOA | 1 |
| GamerGal | CYOA | 3 |
| Ghalev | CYOA | 1 |
| goddamusername | CYOA | 1 |
| Graham | CYOA | 1 |
| Greg Buchanan | cyoa | 1 |
| Hanon Ondricek | cyoa | 6 |
| Houstonion | CYOA | 1 |
| Hulk Handsome | CYOA | 16 |
| IFforL2 | cyoa | 2 |
| ifwizz | CYOA | 1 |
| IstenNyila | CYOA | 1 |
| Jacoder23 | cyoa | 3 |
| jakomo | cyoa | 14 |
| Jame Gumb Jr. | CYOA | 1 |
| Janos Biro | cyoa | 1 |
| Joe Aaron Sellers | CYOA | 1 |
| jonprime | cyoa | 1 |
| Juhana | CYOA | 3 |
| kaleidofish | CYOA | 1 |
| Keltena | CYOA | 1 |
| Kevin Jackson-Mead | CYOA | 1 |
| knudsenjohnc | cyoa | 12 |
| konstantinos | cyoa | 1 |
| kwheaton | CYOA | 2 |
| Kyle Hicks | CYOA | 1 |
| Lascivity | CYOA | 1 |
| LeonDaydreamer | CYOA | 3 |
| Librivore42 | cyoa | 1 |
| Liz England | CYOA | 1 |
| Lucid | cyoa | 5 |
| ludzu | cyoa | 1 |
| lunaterra | cyoa | 6 |
| magic sympathy | CYOA | 9 |
| Magma | cyoa | 1 |
| maki | CYOA | 1 |
| manonamora | cyoa | 1 |
| Marius Müller | CYOA | 1 |
| markcarew | CYOA | 1 |
| MathBrush | CYOA | 1 |
| Maz | cyoa | 4 |
| MD | cyoa | 1 |
| mechagrue | cyoa | 1 |
| Michael L. | CYOA | 5 |
| MidnightOwl Studios | cyoa | 1 |
| Mighty Owlbear | CYOA | 1 |
| Miles Matrix | CYOA | 1 |
| Molly | CYOA | 110 |
| mrtony | cyoa | 1 |
| n-n | CYOA | 1 |
| Nate Edwards | CYOA | 1 |
| Nathaniel | CYOA | 6 |
| necromancer | CYOA | 173 |
| Nightwatch | cyoa | 1 |
| NMCannon | CYOA | 1 |
| Nomad | CYOA | 1 |
| Northwind | cyoa | 1 |
| o0pyromancer0o | CYOA | 3 |
| oceow | CYOA | 15 |
| Ogre | cyoa | 2 |
| OverThinking | CYOA | 3 |
| P. B. Parjeter | CYOA | 1 |
| PaperBlurt | CYOA | 10 |
| Perforation | cyoa | 14 |
| Peter Bates | cyoa | 1 |
| Porpentine | cyoa | 1 |
| postapocalypso | cyoa | 1 |
| PrettyInk | CYOA | 1 |
| Pseudavid | cyoa | 1 |
| Pseudo_Intellectual | CYOA | 1 |
| R0mulus | cyoa | 3 |
| radiosity | CYOA | 2 |
| RandyC | cyoa | 1 |
| RichCheng | CYOA | 1 |
| rosencrantz | CYOA | 5 |
| Ruiter | CYOA | 2 |
| ruleofthree | CYOA | 1 |
| sadgoosecoop | CYOA | 1 |
| Sam Kabo Ashwell | cyoa | 8 |
| Sdn | cyoa | 1 |
| Sherry Jones | cyoa | 1 |
| SingleBit | CYOA | 1 |
| smallgraygames | cyoa | 1 |
| Snoother | CYOA | 4 |
| Sobol | CYOA | 4 |
| Sophia de Augustine | CYOA | 1 |
| Sounder1995 | cyoa | 1 |
| Stephane F. | cyoa | 2 |
| Strawberrycake | cyoa | 1 |
| TheTMD | CYOA | 6 |
| Thingomy | CYOA | 1 |
| To1577 | cyoa | 1 |
| trojo | CYOA | 1 |
| TYV | CYOA | 1 |
| Vendetta | CYOA | 1 |
| verityvirtue | CYOA | 2 |
| Victor Gijsbers | CYOA | 1 |
| vociferocity | CYOA | 1 |
| Wade Clarke | CYOA | 17 |
| Wanderlust | CYOA | 1 |
| Xavid | CYOA | 1 |
| Zape | cyoa | 135 |
| Zarf | CYOA | 1 |
| ZenGarden | CYOA | 1 |
+----------------------+------+----------+
I recognize several users who also have accounts here who do not seem to be involved in this thread.
1 Like
I agree with Otis that if there is any uncertainty about the wisdom of mass replacing tags in a way that’s hard to reverse, it should be put on pause, so I won’t make any changes there unless very strong community consensus becomes available.
Tag choices that are easily reversible seem better to me. For instance, if I were to add “xyzzyy nominated” to all games with any xyzzy tag, then, as this tag doesn’t currently exist, I could simply delete it again to restore parity.
I think Otis’s essential, helpful insight is that because some games use choice-based and some use CYOA, it would be hard to undo, and that’s a good reason for me to want to wait.
2 Likes
To be clear: I’m not aiming to inhibit the spread of a choice-based tag and have zero objection to mass-tagging every game currently tagged cyoa (or other synonyms) with choice-based. That’s a sensible course of action that would be additive and not subtractive to the information on IFDB.
And again, I’m not in the least opposed to tag management (aka ‘wrangling’) by a volunteer committee. Formal definitions of tags can be valuable, too, and I’ve made some suggestions to support that effort. I just think that putting that kind of system in place means more work and a slower pace of change than might seem obvious at first. The thread about tag wording and the new one about games matching tags both demonstrate that short phrases just aren’t as clean and universally unambiguous as we would like.
Otis, you can call me a very old timer, but I have preferred apple ][ for the tag…
Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.
1 Like
A few games like Aisle have both a “scoreless” and “no score” tag – which one should be kept?
I was going to say “whichever is used more”, but I see they’re almost exactly tied—that makes it tough. I don’t really see a strong argument for one over the other in terms of clarity or anything.
1 Like
I’ve been tinkering with the Fuwa Bansaku page because I finally uploaded a version to the IF Archive, and I noticed a funky new tag: Character
Is this some kind of remnant from the recent tag consolidation? Quite a few games have it, but it doesn’t make any sense to me.
1 Like
I also don’t agree that To Hell in a Hamper is Trivially-Challenging. Maybe that’s an old tag for that game, but I just noticed it now. Seems like a very odd classification when the game is packed with puzzles.
1 Like