Single Choice Jam 2!

[HAL9000]

Also, and I hope I’m not describing Aisle, randomness at both whether an action works as anticipated and events happening while no choice is being made could make for quite an interesting experience.

[AmandaB]

@Lancelot

The answer to that was yes at the time. If this no longer applies, then indeed One King would be impossible.

I asked this above and got this answer:

@manonamora

@AmandaB

So do NEWS movements count as the single action?

Yes it does!
(one single action per coded room)

So it looks like you’d be out of luck if you had submitted this year.

[Lancelot (Onno Brouwer)]

@AmandaB

So it looks like you’d be out of luck if you had submitted this year.

Ah well their loss. No sequel “the last dragon” this year then.

But strictly speaking, a single valid command at each and every turn should be permissible. This translates to a single clickable link in eg twine. The fact that these commands happen in the same room should be irrelevant.

If eg I would rewrite my parser game to a choice game in twine, with the exact same commands to get through the game, it would then be valid because no “multiple commands in a single room” … that sounds bogus to me I would then have multiple passages describing the same room but just with a single link which would actually do something…

(Of course I did create that twine game. My point is that the mechanics are the same and the format should not matter)

[AmandaB]

@Lancelot

a single valid command at each and every turn should be permissible.

But this is just a parser game, in which you can take a single valid action at every turn. I think I must be misunderstanding what you mean.

[JoshGrams]

I think (also not an organizer) the distinction is that you can have multiple commands in one room but only one of them can be valid at once. So to re-work your example:

Room

You’re in a room. There’s a thing here. The north wall seems to have been engulfed by a forest. A child-sized stairway leads down to the south.

X THING

Nope. Try smelling it.

N

All you can do here is smell the thing.

S

What did I just tell you?

SMELL THING

It smells terrible. You want to kick it away from you.

KICK THING

You send it flying out the window. Now you feel like you can move on.

N (this is your one choice, going north rather than south)

Forest

…

That’s my understanding. But I think the jam was pretty clearly intended for choice games and I’m not sure if it’s fully defined for parser games (yet?).

I’m also not sure it’s a restriction that I personally find interesting… a lot of the games that I played last year felt like they were really stretching the rules in some way or other – e.g. Boing is a one-move game like Aisle, but it intentionally has progression through playing it multiple times: you’re (IIRC) trying to learn the space and find the one move that wins the game? You can certainly have linear choice games (kinetic novels?) that are good, and you can do a fair bit with adding just one choice to that, but… I’m not sure it fits parser games well at all…

[AmandaB]

@JoshGrams

the distinction is that you can have multiple commands in one room but only one of them can be valid at once.

Huh. I’m still unsure even after seeing your example. So in a choice format this would look like:
1.) Mess with the thing somehow (X, smell, whatever) which locks you into doing whatever you need to do with the thing, so your next set of choices would be X, smell, kick thing
2.) Go north (and not mess with the thing at all)
3.) Go south (and not mess with the thing at all)

Is that about how you understand it?

@JoshGrams

I’m not sure it fits parser games well at all

Yeah, that format just doesn’t work well for a parser. Hopefully someone will prove me wrong.

[JoshGrams]

Yeah, that sounds about right. I think in a choice format it’s much clearer because there would only be one link at a time. So you’d click the link, and it would either take you to another room or light up another link in the same room.

Whereas it almost defeats the whole point of a parser to have everything you can type be an error except for the one action that moves the story forward.

I do think it might make a neat exercise in writing error messages and guiding things forward, but I’m not sure how well it works as a game. Though yeah, I’d be interested to be proven wrong.

Hmm. Some sort of story like Turandot where you’re running a literal gauntlet? But even that gives you a choice of how you’re going to perform the character. I dunno.

[DeusIrae (Mike Russo)]

@JoshGrams

I do think it might make a neat exercise in writing error messages and guiding things forward, but I’m not sure how well it works as a game. Though yeah, I’d be interested to be proven wrong.

The thing that’s interesting about this, IMO, is that the difference between “action response” and “error message” can become slightly metaphysical. Could be fun to explore as an author, but I’m not sure how legible that would be to the player.

[AmandaB]

@DeusIrae

the difference between “action response” and “error message” can become slightly metaphysical.

You could also go against the spirit of the jam very easily with this by giving lots of information via error messages:

X BIRD
You can’t see it, but you can sense that it’s about to attack you by its angry twittering.

SWAT BIRD
You can’t swat it, but you can feel your special magic power coiling inside your mouth defensively at the threat.

YELL AT BIRD
Your special magic power doesn’t work that way, silly! You feel it infusing your teeth with power now.

BITE BIRD
Crunch. No more threatening bird.

All ostensibly error messages except BITE, but they’re certainly giving you actionable information that would seem to be out of line with the jam’s goals.

[cpollett (Chris Pollett)]

I have an idea for a choice-based game, but I just wanted to make sure it conforms to the rules.

The world looks like:

Room_1 -> Room_2 -> Room_3 -> ... Room_n

In Room_1 you have the choice to stay in Room_1 or to go to Room_2. All other rooms
only have one choice: to advance to the next room. Room_1 changes depending on
how long you’ve been in it.

Would such a game meet the rules?

[climbingstars]

I believe that would be fine!

@manonamora

I think The World’s Most Annoying Game from the Really Bad Jam would fit this category (if you restricted the player from going backward).

Your idea is basically this but without the annoying part!

[manonamora (M.)]

so many posts… alright…
I am answering as I read through the post, sorry if someone answered it before.

@Joey

Would (in Twine say) expanding links and cycling links count as separate choices? For example, is this one choice, three or four?

Expanding links (link-replace/link-append/link-prepend) and cycling count as choices.

@climbingstars

Does that mean I can enter it again and you can spend another 4 hours going through it?

No. Needs to be a new thing. Can be similar, but can’t be the same exact game with the same prose/code

@AmandaB

Would it be cheating to have a TALK TO PERSON ABOUT TOPIC with multiple topics available? Or asking about multiple objects?

Yes, it would.
you could get around it by having a general ASK that covers all topic at once

@climbingstars

I’m assuming hidden actions and meta actions don’t count to the 1 action limit? Stuff like xyzzy, quit etc.

QUIT/RESTART/etc… are the same as HELP/HINT for us.
If XYZZY pushes the story forward, it counts as the action, if it’s just to implement a funny fail/error response, it won’t count.

@AmandaB

Although if those didn’t count, you could hijack them for a game purpose. Which would be an awesome way to slide around the rules.

That was Onno’s idea for the UNDO in One King to Rule Them All. He had to create extra rooms to make it work with the rule

@AmandaB

I’m STILL not clear on this. Does this mean I can have all the actions I want in one parser room, but only one action in the rest?

And must the one action be used only once? Or if EXAMINE is allowed and there are 20 things in the room, can the player X all of them?

One room: a bunch of actions will work
The other rooms: only one action will work, the rest will give error.

And it’s per coded rooms. So in the code you could have:

Living_Room1: *Mel's Living room*
This is the living room. It has flowers.
-> check the flower

Living_Room2: *Mel's Living room*
This is the living room. It has flowers.
-> go north

Does it make more sense?

@mathbrush

That one is a bit different though because EXAMINE does have a response.

@AmandaB

But there are multiple actions there.

That’s because it’s the IFComp version, which was edited to work for the competition and its players.
EDIT: ok Onno answered lol

I think I covered it all?
Please let me know if it’s still unclear!!!

[Lancelot (Onno Brouwer)]

To make parser work for Single Choice, apart from the default error responses I also had to tackle two problems:

1 The player taking inventory also counted as an action. I addressed that problem by including the player inventory with the room description, so a separate take inventory was no longer needed.

2 Since I expected players to fumble around while trying to figure out the next command to use, the room description might scroll off the screen. Normally a player would just look to refresh their memory of what’s in the room. Since that is also counted as a separate action, I argued that I could work around that by using an empty command as a refresh and do an implicit look. In the IFComp version I dropped that and used that mechanic to implement story mode instead. An alternative approach would have been to make look an implicit action after the player gets an error message, but I deemed that option to be too spammy.

[AmandaB]

I am so sorry that I’m so dumb here. I’m trying to figure out how to get my idea to work with anything but just one room.

There’s one major action through the whole game; something like SEARCH. Like if there are 3 holes here, search each one. Once they are all searched and the player has all the information about where they lead, then the player can pick one from a menu to jump into. Then it’s the same in the next area.

Is that OK? It’s SEARCH all the way, but when all are searched, getting a menu that shows you all 3 and letting you pick a number. Which seems like 2 actions, but Onno was able to have FORWARD in his game as well as the one correct action. Every other verb is disabled (except in the first area where I have EXAMINE enabled, too, since it’s OK to have more than one action in one room).

I have a feeling this isn’t OK, but you never get anything you don’t ask for.

[HAL9000]

I think Mike Brian had a good summary of the rule for Single Choice Jam being one moment of free will. However you slice it, I think if you feel that has been achieved, you’re good.

It sounds like a choice-based engine will give you a better delivery of your game idea. You can have the player click SEARCH, get feedback, SEARCH again, get feed back… until they have the information required to make a choice of A,B or C (the single choice).

Edit: Mike, Brian, they sound the same to me.

[manonamora (M.)]

@AmandaB

Like if there are 3 holes here, search each one.

Under the rule, this could be done either:

• the multi action room
• the player has to search them in a certain order, and if the order isn’t met you get an error
• the player can do SEARCH and all three holes are searched together

*so like:

Room1 - Living room
> Search hole 1
     -> there are things in there
          -> code sends the player to a copy of this room, 
               but they can only search the second hole

Room2 - Living room
> Search hole 2
     -> there are MORE things in there
          -> code sends the player again to a copy of this room, 
               but they can only search the third hole

Room3 - Living room
> Search hole 3
     -> there are MORE things in there
          -> code sends the player to the next area

@AmandaB

then the player can pick one from a menu to jump into. Then it’s the same in the next area.

If the player has to choose one path out of three option in each area, you’d end up going against the rule… Unless 2 out of the three holes sends the player back into the room, because fake holes! which would mean error message.

@AmandaB

Onno was able to have FORWARD in his game as well as the one correct action

He had also edited the game for the IFComp, where the restriction wasn’t there
(most still is in the spirit of the jam)

[pinkunz]

@AmandaB

You could also go against the spirit of the jam very easily with this by giving lots of information via error messages:

X BIRD
You can’t see it, but you can sense that it’s about to attack you by its angry twittering.

SWAT BIRD
You can’t swat it, but you can feel your special magic power coiling inside your mouth defensively at the threat.

YELL AT BIRD
Your special magic power doesn’t work that way, silly! You feel it infusing your teeth with power now.

BITE BIRD
Crunch. No more threatening bird.

All ostensibly error messages except BITE, but they’re certainly giving you actionable information that would seem to be out of line with the jam’s goals.

I know this goes against the spirit of the jam, but I would be tickled playing this. Very very funny. As a player I would be very amused.

[manonamora (M.)]

@AmandaB

You could also go against the spirit of the jam very easily with this by giving lots of information via error messages:

I missed that it seems, sorry about that, but errors messages do not go against the rule (or the spirit) as long as they don’t advance the story. They can hint at the correct action to help the player so they can move forward.

[AmandaB]

OK, I think this my last question. If I actually get something written you will be seriously credited as more than just an organizer, @manonamora .

Press any key to continue/clear the screen. I see this as analogous to a “next” button in a choice game. So:

Choose thing (the action)
Get text about it that tells you to press any key;
Press any key
Screen clears, you’re in the next room.

That doesn’t count as an action, does it? It doesn’t seem like one.

[pinkunz]

If I’m understanding you correctly (which I may not) this was postulated as the museum tour method last year. I forget who came up with it (Future Pinkunz: It was @Draconis ).

Basically, the idea was you’re in a tour group, automatically walking from room to room as the tour guide prattles on, each room stuffed with curiosities and actionable objects/obvious interests. Like a traveling cutscene. If you press space for next, then you keep tailing the museum tour guide instead. Where and when and how you decide to split off from the group is your single choice, which can lead to an immediate result, or a string of results connected by the next key.

It’s sort of like an Aisle on rails. If I recall correctly, last year this suggested method was approved, but I would check to see if that holds true (or if my memory is correct) this year.