Review: Lime Ergot, and notes on the nested concept genre

I played “Lime Ergot” by @caleb Wilson.

I enjoyed it a lot and found it pretty approachable. One thing that I noticed is that, because you can only handle a few objects, the game really drives home your only choice: compliance or disobedience.

Spoiler

As far as I can tell, there’s only one way to comply — namely by giving the General her desired drink. However, I found at least two ways to disobey: One is to drink the mixture yourself, and the other is to give her an empty glass. Both of those actions end with you dead. The game also understood but rejected my attempt to throw the glass at the general.

Your inability do to much else lends real weight to the few actions you can perform. It makes the endings stronger and gives them a sort of finality — even the endings where you lose. In a more complex game, the losses would feel like “gotchas”, and the sort-of win would feel like an anti-climax, at least in my opinion. But in this context, it works well.

The writing is strong. Again, it has dramatic weight, but it’s also a sort of a black comedy. (The game actually has no genre listed on IFDB even though it was entered into the horror-themed ECTOCOMP.)

I think the closest thing “Lime Ergot” has to a joke — and it’s a good one — is the fact that the changing placard on the drink machine always stays the same: the only ingredient you need is limes. It’s a bit of light humor in an otherwise bleak game.

I guess this could be taken to Monty Python Cheese Shop levels of repetition, but it doesn’t overstay it’s welcome. You only need three limes.

The Weight of Action

I missed that this game was an influence on Toby’s Nose by @CMG when I played the latter game months ago. “Lime Ergot” is a lot shorter and simpler to play than Toby’s Nose, but both games benefit in the same sort of way from the concept.

In Toby’s Nose, barking at the suspect feels like a weighty action after you’ve been smelling things for most of the game — although you can do some fun, but inconsequential, dog-like actions throughout the game as well.

I think it’s interesting that both games, which are probably the best known examples of parser-based nesting or concept linking games, were released around 2014-2015. This is around the time that Twine and other choice-based engines were becoming popular, and the simplest Twine games often take a similar concept-linking approach because it emerges from the use of hyperlinks.

That said, complex Twine games that make full use of game states now exist, and they probably account for many of the highest-righted games at this point. In a way, free bird. by Passerine (@malacostraca) — a very strong game with an average 4.5 IFDB rating, versus “Lime Ergot’s” almost equally strong 4.0 — is the opposite of this sort of nested concept game.

Both “Lime Ergot” and free bird. are “playing against type” in terms of what players might expect from the engine. free bird. offers pure object manipulation in a way that parser games can’t, while “Lime Ergot” tries to make concept exploration tangible in a way that choice-based games usually can’t.

Other Similar Games

There are other games in the nested concept/nested object genre. CMG has apparently said “Castle of the Red Prince” is also similar to Toby’s Nose, according to another review.

@Mathbrush’s textbook also mentions his own 2017 IF Comp entry, presumably “Absence of Law”, as a similar game.

It also mentions “Out of the Study” by Anssi Räisänen in 2002 as another similar example, so someone clearly thought of this long before Twine.

On top of that, any hypertext fiction that relies heavily on concept association is probably a distant relative to this, even including Nabokov’s Pale Fire, where you’ll deduce the identity, or rather lack of identity, of the narrator early if you use the index properly. That’s kind of similar to “Toby’s Nose” apart from Pale Fire being completely static text.


I’ve taken an interest in this genre because I have an idea for my own nested object game, with true nested objects rather than concepts.

I’m planning to play some more of these as I work on it, both for inspiration and to make sure my idea isn’t close to anything that’s been done. Any thoughts or other recommendations?

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You know, I’m not sure that I have ever tried to give the General an empty glass! Maybe I did and just forgot. The other endings that I can remember are: serving her the finished drink; drinking it yourself; trying to swim away; eating a lime.

The placard is a great hallucinatory touch. Instead of being disoriented by something changing, you’re disoriented by something staying the same. Brilliant.

Metamorphoses is another game with a telescopic EXAMINE command, although it’s only in one small section of the game, from what I can recall. There’s some kind of map or tapestry that you can examine (my memory is foggy), and you can look closer and closer to see supernaturally specific details.

As a concept, this must date back to at least The Iliad, right? With the description of the Shield of Achilles.

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I used the nesting conceit in my game The Loneliest House (which I made before having played any of the examples you mentioned, so I wasn’t trying to build on the concept or do anything new with it).

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@alkyshkalia I used the nesting conceit in my game The Loneliest House

I’ll add that to my list, thanks!

@AMG Instead of being disoriented by something changing, you’re disoriented by something staying the same. Brilliant

I think it really did change, to whatever extent “real” applies in this game. I got the impression it was like an odometer (or a flip calendar where the numbers are each on their own card).

So it changed to to other things, ie. garbled words, before changing to “lime” (the letters whir or something like that, IIRC). Maybe I was projecting my own ideas onto it. Still surreal either way.

trying to swim away;

I didn’t try that because I assumed I couldn’t move. I guess you can!

As a concept, this must date back to at least The Iliad, right? With the description of the Shield of Achilles.

I really have no idea and can’t find anything on it by searching. Can you explain?

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Achilles has a very fancy shield in The Iliad. It’s made by the god Hephaestus. It’s emblazoned with imagery that represents the world as a microcosm, and the text zooms in on different scenes–just like telescopic descriptions in parser games! For example, the shield has cities on it, and the details are so immaculate that you can see what individual people are doing in these cities as they go about their lives.

This actually could make a pretty cool game, now that I think about it.

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This was explicitly one of the inspirations for Metamorphoses!

So, in the Iliad, there’s a segment when Achilles’s divine mother Thetis goes to commission some new armor for him. And it’s described in loving detail, with over a hundred lines of verse dedicated specifically to the shield, going inward layer by layer with more and more intricacy, to the point that it’s hard to imagine how all of this could fit on a single object. (But of course it’s being crafted by a god, not a human.)

[Hephaestus] wrought also two cities, fair to see and busy with the hum of men. In the one were weddings and wedding-feasts, and they were going about the city with brides whom they were escorting by torchlight from their chambers. Loud rose the cry of Hymen, and the youths danced to the music of flute and lyre, while the women stood each at her house door to see them.

Meanwhile the people were gathered in assembly, for there was a quarrel, and two men were wrangling about the blood-money for a man who had been killed, the one saying before the people that he had paid damages in full, and the other that he had not been paid. Each was trying to make his own case good, and the people took sides, each man backing the side that he had taken; but the heralds kept them back, and the elders sate on their seats of stone in a solemn circle, holding the staves which the heralds had put into their hands. Then they rose and each in his turn gave judgement, and there were two talents laid down, to be given to him whose judgement should be deemed the fairest.

About the other city there lay encamped two hosts in gleaming armour, and they were divided whether to sack it, or to spare it and accept the half of what it contained. But the men of the city would not yet consent, and armed themselves for a surprise…

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Ha! I am not surprised! I should probably replay that game. Only the broad outlines remain in my mind. Most of the specifics have faded.

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Interesting … that helps. I was thinking of Matryoshka dolls as another example.

I guess there is some leeway in that things do not always need to have a literal parent-child relationship.

In Lime Ergot, there’s a skull attached to orchid roots, which is attached to the rest of the skeleton, which helps you find a lime (with possibly another step in there somewhere).

On the other hand, finding the distant lime grove is a very literal process of zooming in and it’s similar to Achilles’ Shield.

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I feel like I did this with In a minute there is time, which was also inspired in no small part by Toby’s Nose and Lime Ergot, though far less expansive (for now. The TBD expanded version though…) There are some locations/objects that are structurally nested into each other and gently reveal themselves the more you click.

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Thanks! I’ll check it out.

Interesting. I just played through In a minute there is time several times. It’s rare to see IF games with real-time mechanics.

On top of the “time is fleeting” dramatic effect you were going for, forcing players to re-read passages is a good way to make people pay attention. I think this reinforces memorizing the branching paths in a way that most similar games wouldn’t.

Based on the description, I take it there’s no win condition? Or should I keep looking? Not that every game needs a win condition…

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I’ve also fascinated by the genre and this particular game. So much I’ve made my own Lime Ergot, using the very same structure but with a different story.

I repeat: it is the same structure, the same puzles, but totally different story and format.

Let me know what you think:

In the spirit of original Lime Ergot, this one is also written under 4 hours for ectocomp. And I’m still pending of update it, so it is still a little rough.

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The telescopic mechanic! It’s awesome. The first time I found it it was in that part of Metamorphoses.

And recently I recommend the graphic really awesome ART game Gorogoa.

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I hope you continue to enjoy exploring interactive fiction games with unique mechanics!

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@Ruber_Eaglenest This genre/mechanic is clearly larger than I thought it was. Thanks, I’ll add those to my list!


Anyway, last night I played 2002’s “Out of the Study.” Like Lime Ergot, it’s set in one location. This time, you’re in a bug collector’s study. You’re trying to assemble a five-digit code to open a door.

Other people have mentioned difficulties in the game — particularly the unmentioned objects and the particular ways in which you need to search and handle things.

I had problems with those things too, but that’s not important.

Connecting Different Concepts

What’s interesting is that game attempts to blend using objects and looking at things, something that the two other nesting games I’ve played so far haven’t done. “Out of the Study” even has a scenery puzzle that involves looking with binoculars instead of just looking repeatedly.

The core puzzle is challenging — I used a walkthrough — and it’s in three parts. You need to find the numbers, eliminate numbers that are red herrings, and put the numbers in order. Puzzle pros might have little trouble with this, but for me, those are three challenges in a dense game, and they’re presented in a way that leaves a lot of room to misinterpret things.

Despite its flaws, numbers are a good idea for a game that intends to link concepts. Numbers don’t need an inventory, and they’re distinct from objects that you might need to manipulate. For example, the number nine is represented by the holes in a pen holder — most people are going to consider the number of holes something to observe, and nobody will try to take the holes (except for maybe @deusirae ).

The natural setting is also a good idea, since nature tends toward numbers and patterns. Lime Ergot went for the surreal because it meant that anything could be connected, whereas Out of the Study leans a bit more on things that are inherently connected.

In this game, you know that 20 cows are irrelevant to the password because that number is double digits and because cows aren’t insects. And, because it’s an insect game involving numbers, you can guess that one of the clues is going to involve 6 legs somehow, even before you start looking.

Other Stuff

As for plot, the ending doesn’t proceed from your actions – you’re explicitly given a choice about what ending you want to see. That’s okay, since unlocking the lock is pretty satisfying on its own, and the game is about atmosphere more than plot.

Finally, since the author seems to still be entering comps, I’d say this is a good candidate for a remake/update/expansion under Spring Thing’s New Game+ category.

Even though it’s more than 20 years old, the setting is very strong. It’s one that won’t ever seem dated because it relies heavily on the natural world. I think it would be received well if it was sufficiently modernized.

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I hope you continue to enjoy exploring interactive fiction games with unique mechanics!

Thanks, and welcome to the boards!

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my pleasure @pbparjeter

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