Moral Premise and Gaming

Inevitable does not imply obvious, simple, or trite. I simply meant that well-plotted stories have a sense of internal order and consistency. They are in a word dramatic. The alternative seems to be stories that rely on coincidence and deus ex machina on the one hand, and stories in which nothing happens on the other. I will not insist that such stories are necessarily bad; they can be quite good. But lack of dramatic virtue does not imply other virtues, any more than its presence implies the absence of flaws.

Perhaps I should state that good dramatic fiction is inevitable, and good literary fiction is real. One type of story embraces the artifice of the construct and the other transcends it. Both seek to share a truth: the one in a form that shapes the plot; the other in the shadow cast by events over our thoughts. I do not think that a story can be good unless it has at least that much purpose behind it. Moral premise is one refinement of that notional purpose, and in any refinement some trace elements are discarded. If those traces are essential to your goals, then moral premise is the wrong tool.

Absolutely. Works like Deadline Enchanter fall into this realm and IF is richer as a result.

You’re conflating two things here, though, that I don’t think are necessarily connected — a perspective I also tried to add to your other Moral Premise thread. The lack of popular success in textual IF has very little to do with the lack of popular success of what is typically thought of as a ‘literary’ novel. They are on the losing ends of two trends and for very different reasons. In particular with IF, the form hasn’t been taken seriously enough as a form of storyteling in the same way that all gaming isn’t yet taken seriously enough as a form of storytelling. (just ask Roger Ebert.) So you’re taking two cultures that have often been diametrically opposed, and lumping them together and saying that by getting away from what ‘literary types’ would be impressed with, you would solve the other side as well? But text adventures have never been primarily aimed at ‘literary types’, so much as Just plain readers: who are also the sort of people who are quite used to the moral complexities of the modern novel. This is why I think that the people you would wish to dismiss as ‘literary’ are actually the whole potential audience for any IF that reaches beyond the children’s tale level. (For a children’s tale, the moral premise is the perfect pitch.)

There is a famous saying about never going broke by underestimating your audience, I realise, but you’ve implied as I read it that text adventures have heretofore been too literary to be popular, and that’s not the way I experienced the history. After a certain transition point where they and their trappings became popularly perceived as technologically obsolescent, text adventures have been unpopular regardless of how literary they were or weren’t and there have been plenty of attempts at going the genre-based or crowdpleasing routes.

Well as I say, it may be a necessary step on the way to something, the way it was in literature (BTW I am including popular literature which is a bit more morally sophisticated than it may seem from reducing everything to one line). and In the case that this is so, I’ll be glad that somebody was already thinking about it and processing it, so thanks for starting this discussion.

Paul.

I don’t think the best literary fiction really denies that it still operates just as much as an artifice or a construct as any ‘dramatic’ fiction, so I wouldn’t run too far with that distinction. They are all constructs, they are just constructed for different effects and to achieve different sorts of communication. Even if a novel is literary, if care isn’t taken to manage my expectations and keep track of what I am supposed to be wondering about, I quickly lose interest in that author just as I would in a sci-fi action author who couldn’t maintain a self-consistent plot. They are both constructs; they can both be well or poorly constructed, and a sense of inevitability can be achieved or rejected by the author according to taste, independently of whether there is any moral premise.

The key is that the ‘literary types’ as we’re calling them are using, let’s face it, more sophisticated constructs. If IF is not capable of that level of sophistication then frankly I’m a lot less interested in it as a form — particularly in writing it. Why choose an instrument with so many fewer notes? But I don’t believe that’s the case; however it may be a while before such theories as ‘moral premise will rule’ or my own ‘IF can and should leapfrog modernism’ are truly tested.

Ha ha, not going there. But I meant more that the postmodernists killed off the moral premise, not the modernists. I see Joyce as a progenitor of postmodernism; I probably should have made that clear since often he is lumped in with the modernists — but how could a modernist end up writing the last chapters of Ulysses, or basically all of Finnegan’s Wake? He’s one of the pioneers who corrupted the whole idea of storyteling being based on a moral premise. And I don’t think of that kind of corrptuion as modernist, no.

Very interesting observation there.

Paul.

That’s rapidly changing in the game industry and has been for years. Working in it, usually as quality assurance, I can tell you that storyboarding, character arcs, placement of inciting incidents, and so on, is a major area of focus for some game companies. Certainly not across the board, of course. But there is a major shift in the ability to tell effective stories. A lot of the game examples I provided – whether in graphical adventure or first-person shooter format – was an attempt to indicate at least some of this trend. Whether it’s taken “seriously enough” as a form of storytelling, that’s hard to say. I’m less concerned about the critics (like Ebert) and more concerned with what audiences respond to. That will be the barometer of what of storytelling is effective in a game format. We’re starting to see that more and more with people’s buying decisions.

On the first point, I think textual IF has been aimed at just plain game players. The “readers” part has been incidental, at best.

On the first and second points, I’ve been conducting classes on textual IF since 2005 and I can say that the one thing people have never said is that any textual IF is too literary. So if I gave that impression of my thoughts, I was incorrect in doing so.

The problem has been that textual IF is too much game and, to many people, barely even that. (Appealing to avid game players with textual IF is certainly possible, but it’s also just one part of a potentially vast audience.)

When I have presented textual IF – and I’ve done it with works from the Infocom days, from the resurgence period of Legend Entertainment, and then from a wide swath of the textual IF community (including various IF Comp games) – the issue has largely been that the stories are not engaging enough. People have reported that the characters are barely existent as far as they’re concerned. The plots are often not all that interesting. The dialogue (when there is any) is borderline at best. Here I’m reporting on the feedback I’ve been given, as opposed to just presenting my own conclusions. (I do realize that this is anecdotal to everyone reading this, however.) The point is that the reaction I’ve gotten is that people just don’t care about what they just played/read. It was a little bit of a diversion, but not much beyond that. I’ve had people tell me it was basically just like playing a more elaborate form of crossword puzzle: slotting words and phrases in the right place to “win.”

What people responded to initially was “a book I can play.” They liked the idea of taking something they already enjoy – reading good stories – and having some ability to interact with the story. Authors, in turn, were intrigued by the possibilities of making an already established audience less passive, in that they now had direct agency within the story. (I even had screenwriters who were interested in the idea of textual IF systems becoming some sort of “living storyboard”; a quasi prototype, if you will, for how a series of scenes can play out.)

My contention has long been that textual IF was not primarily aimed at readers insofar as it did not encourage readers to engage with textual IF as they do with their novels or even with their film experiences. This is largely because writing techniques were not utilized by the vast majority of people creating textual IF. Why is that? Because the people authoring textual IF were (often) not writers. They may have been people who wanted to tell a story, but the focus was more on creating a fun game than a fun game and an emotional experience.

Having audiences search through IFDB, for example, is a very enlightening experience for those who want to see how people approach textual IF, what catches their eye, what they tend to be intrigued with, etc. Then you have to do follow-up: after they try it, what was their experience like? Did they feel let-down? Did they feel surprised at how good it was? And so on.

With all this rambling of mine aside, I will say that I am aware that I’ve often approached textual IF in a counter-current fashion. As such I realize that a certain extent, there is an inherent selection effect in how I’ve presented classes and how I’ve engaged outside audiences (adults and children; teachers and students; authors and screenwriters; readers and players) with textual IF. I’ve tried to guard against that when possible but it’s often not – hence me presenting ideas like this here for consideration. So much thanks for your responses. You (and others here) have given me some really good things to think about and take into consideration when presenting textual IF to audiences.

I’m going to humbly suggest to posters upthread that they don’t pick up The Moral Premise, or any Hollywood screenwriting manual, without first having a look at the sources they draw upon, in this case Lajos Egri’s The Art of Dramatic Writing. Not to say there’s anything bad about Hollywood screenwriting manuals like Syd Fields’ and Robert McKee’s work, but that they tend to focus too much on formula and too little on the grounding and theory that make the formula work. Hell, if you want to really be informed when you approach Syd Fields, you have to go all the way back to Aristotle.

As a general rule, I tend to look first at what how-to books that the current crop of how-to books compare themselves to. I also find that I get best results as far as creative writing is concerned with books published between 1900 and, oh, 1975 or so. Time separates the wheat from the chaff.

Right now I’m a few chapters into Chris Vogler’s The Writer’s Journey, but since I haven’t yet found a copy of The Hero with a THousand Faces, it isn’t doing much for me.

So thanks for the heads-up. (As for Aristotle, I’ve read some of it, but he’s just too distant from me for me to get much from him.)