“Stand” is a somewhat sketchy example, since there’s no contextual confirmation that ERCI in noun position actually makes sense as “stand” - this is one of the bits that’s definitely still bugging me since I can’t work out what “a stand of ANESTHETI INLARK” could actually be.
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The only objects found in “stands” are plants, or objects metaphorically related to plants (mushrooms, microphones).
That raises the issue of these plants growing in a pit. They could be reeds or ferns; the player appears to fashion some kind of gas mask out of them?
Oh, I was thinking that the stand was supporting the ANESTHETI INLARK, not comprised of it. (Like a music stand, or a stand of IV equipment.) But a plant could also make sense there; maybe it’s a magic curative herb or the like?
It was suggested earlier that INLARK could be “emergency”, so if we’re really embracing the techno-fantasy mishmash in Zork style, the ANESTHETI INLARK could be something like a hazmat suit.
(It still feels wrong, though. Most of the big translation breakthroughs so far have had a certain obvious-in-hindsight logic to them, and I’m not getting that from any of the current proposals, mine included. Speaking of which …)
What do you make of the interpretation that the ALL is a bright light, in that case?
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If ALL is light, what would a TAKE ALL and a SLEEP ALL be? A light bulb and a light sensor?
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It can’t be literally “light” unless we’re wrong about WIRNO FOIT being “providing light”. But it could be magic or energy or some such?
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Don’t we already have FOIT for light, based on the assumption that (wirno foit) is “providing light”?
EDIT: Have we considered something like “electric” for ALL? Maybe the TAKE ALL emits sparks of electricity, and powers the door?
EDIT2: I keep being like 2 minutes late to these things, huh.
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Okay, so, I decided I was unlikely to get anywhere with this if I didn’t start looking at it more systematically, and I made a spreadsheet of all the currently untranslated words (with a count of how many times they appear and any notes/guesses about what they mean) so I could sort it alphabetically and see if that made it easier to spot words that might be related.
(I could share the spreadsheet, but I did it all by hand and I’m sure it has plenty of mistakes. Also it would be more helpful if it listed every unique word, not just the untranslated ones, but again, I did it all by hand and it was already very time-consuming as is. Someone who’s better at coding than I am should try doing it programmatically, maybe.)
This did help me spot a couple things that were obvious but probably not that helpful:
The smoke twists and MOZEM, MEFALO the pit with PLORNY DVASN.
The smoke PLOR around the pit, but it doesn’t seem to NEIDO any.
Hey, finally my long-ago observation that -N can be a nominalizing suffix comes in handy for something! I’m going to guess “plumes (n)” and “plumes (v)” for this, although there are probably other similar words it could be.
You are SIK the top of a narrow, smoke-ERJEN chamber. A high CORRAN door stands open to the north.
The DANCE spell SETON LEID as you cast it. The flames SITITINO POORVO as the WOVEL LEID PUPLEN, until the DOROP XOPREL a NERB of PAINT NOIFI, CALMAO SIKII KINJ enough to SHALOK SESL GONE.
“Near” and “nearly”, maybe?
But what’s more interesting (and relevant to the current conversation) is that… well, SLE is a lot like SLEEP, isn’t it? We know SLE means “key”, we’ve just left it untranslated because we’re not sure if there are different words for “key” in the computer sense and “key” in the object-that-unlocks-doors sense. But what if they are the same word in Lionese just like in English? Could a SLEEP be, perhaps, a keyhole?
EDIT: Oh, or if we’re going high-tech, a SLEEP could be something like a keypad, and then SLE doesn’t even need to mean “key” in multiple senses. Or there could be other compounds with “key” or words that would conceivably contain the root for “key” that I’m not thinking of.
… Of course, even if this is correct, which it may not be, none of this really gets us any closer to figuring out what ALL is.
EDIT x 2: Oh, also, another random not-that-helpful thing, now that I’m looking at that last quote I included above, is that I think XOPREL must be “resemble(s)” (it’s literally “looklike”).
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Good thinking! Here’s a full list of words, sorted alphabetically. You should be able to copy it with a button at the top right. I’ve made no attempt to add translations; this is all done mechanically.
about
aceba
acrot
adamur
adamuri
ajua
akne
all
alvenk
amy
andi
anestheti
anosphuly
apple
arenk
askiosi
askiosy
aush
aushtarnh
awordo
belford
bem
bi
bien
bisyle
bisylen
blong
blue
book
borm
boryl
bowl
bretneii
brox
buely
bunaly
calam
calami
calam-vor
calcevornia
calmao
calminjo
carab
carhimi
claiz
coas
corran
corset
corset-el
courne
creln
croim
croimen
croimo
crolimen
cromne
crosh
daimar
dance
dargil
dexini
digrogi
doblen
dogon
door
door-el
doory
dorblen
dorop
down
draw
dreip
dress
drink
drop
duck
durii
dus
dvasn
e
east
eat
egg
eggen
eggo
eimar
el
emily
eplev
er
erci
ercio
eric
eye
falno
falok
fan
fanit
farn-torshy
fence
fi
firdan
fire
firf
firpay
firpsa
fish
fiu
fiweem
fnor
fo
fobrel
foit
folks
fonn
fooni
fouco
fre
frelm
frezy
fulba
fursun
furt
fus
garst
garsty
gelasen
get
ghorn
glanc
glenc
glulk
gorny
gorong
graem
gralam
grey
gu-dwen
gu-kounam
gupla
gu-sogen
halo
hamebo
help
hepy
hernk
hobii
horex
hornknen
hral
hralne
i
ia
iai
ifisink
ilsh
ilshtarnh
ilshzernh
incan
inlark
iskoleb
it
ith
ithi
jair
jairy
janai
jeolo
jepy
jevol
jololen
joorner
ka
kail
kaol
karesh
kawk
kenol
kinj
kiremo
kliunen-tint
knife
koln
koobar
koona
korb
korii
kounam
kralni
kudorii
kui
kuri
kyuay-bant
lamb
lambo
lark
lede
leid
leifob
lerul
leruli
leruo
ligani
lighan
light
lion
listen
lobo
loid
look
loovany
loovao
luin
lukehart
man
manan
marghensi
mazrul
mazruli
mefalo
milego
milga
mirror
mlemo
mobi
moharn
molk
mook
morvont
morvonty
mouse
mozem
mronsor
mugrent
n
nabilen
nabimy
nam
nasaberg
nator
neat
neglonen
neidii
neido
nekko
ner
nerb
nerom
nesteny
next
nire
nith
no
noifi
nolo
nolvont
nool
norgen
nw
oanor
oawul
oin
olet
oleti
olt
olt-shron
on
orheln
os
oxol
package
pacsilm
paint
paro
pase
pasvorn
pe
pick
pickobe
pis
pise
pla
play
plor
plorny
plover
polish
polishy
polvam
ponse
poorvo
pose
pray
prel
present
presnel
pron
prono
puplen
purly
put
qual
qualen
querl
quoseneb
ract
rau
rax
raxy
read
remp
reviro
ro
roro
rubuc
sabra
sabrai
sabral
sard
sarr
satrag
satragii
scarn
se
seago
seat
seati
seato
seaty
sedan
sedani
segost
seis
serioli
ses
sesl
seton
seul
shado
shaimoo
shi
shian
shiar
shifan
ship
shisyle
shoin
sik
sikii
silemi
silemy
silmy
sint
siom
sipasano
sipass
siso
sitin
sititin
sititino
skal
skial
slari
slas
sle
sleep
slunt
slus
smooth
snask
sneef
snoosto
snuvv
sogo
sorgan
spoigh
stake
stand
starn
statenpaker
statim
station
stationy
sti
stoab
stop
stopo
string
sudnogil
surast
swim
swing
swingo
swinth
switch
sword
syln
sylten
ta
take
tant
tant-moose
tarnh
thaln
thalny
thalshaim
there
thinak
think
tlac
tloc
tobii
tofan
token
tormy
torsh
torsho
toy
trim
triv
tuns
tuny
turn
turn-erjen
uctoe
ulk
undi
undo
undoy
unlarv
unlock
up
upholster
upholsto
upusilm
va
val
valy
vaob
varam
varavi
vas
vasi
ve
ve-creln
ve-ga
ve-gord
ve-present
veriga
ve-seag
ve-shalok
ve-station
ve-storn
vlop
vols
volt
volto
vorhel
vort
vupraben
vupram
vurel
wake
watch
wave
wea
weab
wevaxen
wirno
wivle
wivlent
wivleo
worent
wornki
worol
worolob
wovel
wurelbe
x
xol
xolne
xolo
xoprel
xyzzy
y
yarco
ycle
yoso
z
zao
zaokneb
zaokneby
zaol
zaolb
zarf
zarfi
zathal
zatin
zerib
zernh
zernhi
zilfan
zilfany
zoon
zrblm
zropse
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Thank you, that’s excellent! I’ll use this to update my spreadsheet and then I can share it.
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I think XOPREL must be “resemble(s)” (it’s literally “looklike”).
I’ve mentioned these before and agree with both.
The SLE/SLEEP connection is very interesting. Inserting something into a keyhole makes sense in context of the last step of opening a door. Of the options we’ve considered for ALL, “magic” is the only one that works at all with “keyhole,” though it still doesn’t seem a great fit. How do we know the keyhole is magic?
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Or it could it be the opposite of light… “black” or “dark”?
Adventure has a black rod, which serves as a magic wand. A black keyhole certainly makes sense. As for the other appearances of ALL:
FREZY ALL DARGIL out of the TAKE
Whatever the FREZY are (probably not “magic” itself, since FREZY is plural) could be black I suppose.
ALL SITITIN and LAMB around you
Black (== darkness) could fall around you?
it howls out a spell which SITIN like ALL ZAOKNEB.
Unfortunately the fit isn’t great here. We know ZAOKNEB is a singular noun (and it would be amusing to cast DANCE on the ZAOKNEBY). There’s no reason that the ZAOKNEB couldn’t be black, but usually the adjective would follow the noun. (PACKAGE does for instance).
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I could definitely imagine a spell crackling like black lightning or something along those lines! Have we figured out a heuristic for when adjectives come before nouns? It mostly seems random to me so far…
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Okay, here’s my spreadsheet:
It should have all the translations that are in Adam’s document plus some things I remember being proposed in the thread and a few guesses of my own. They’re color-coded by confidence level; most things that are in Adam’s document are marked “high” but if several people have brought up that it might be wrong, I downgraded it to “medium”. Most things not in the document are marked “low” unless they’re part of a phrase we’re fairly certain of.
Here are some things that stood out to me while staring at it:
- What’s up with DOBLEN and DORBLEN? Do we think they’re related but slightly different words, or is DORBLEN a typo?
- Both FIRF and FISH are right in the middle of a group of related words with meanings related to “everything”, although I can’t quite make it make sense.
- Could either FRELM or FREZY be related to FRE, which means “four”?
- What about GRAEM and GRALAM? (I’m not sure if someone’s said this already, but could GRAEM be “center”?)
- The similarity between KOONA and KOOBAR is taunting me, but while “maybe” would make sense for KOONA in the intro, it doesn’t quite make sense for KOONA MANAN unless you assume it can also be “may be”…
- NOLVONT seems like it should have something to do with NOL, “carry” (something related to possession or ownership?), but I can’t quite figure it out.
- Could PRESNEL be related to PRESENT, which we think maybe means “turn”? It is a verb that apparently describes something going around something…
- I don’t think we have any other instances of reduplication like this, but it’s very tempting to read RORO as related to RO.
- In the same sentence as PRESNEL, could SARR be related to SARD (chamber)?
- SHI- as a prefix seems to be an intensifier (SHI + go = hurry, SHI + talk = shout), but what’s SHI on its own? Does it have anything to do with the prefix version? And what about SHIAR and SHIAN?
- If the element UN seems to be related to combat (UNDO = weapon, UNLOCK = attack), could UNLARV be “fight”, maybe? I know we initially were thinking it must be something less violent since we don’t actually fight the dwarf, but seeing it there between UNDO and UNLOCK is suggestive.
- (On an unhelpful linguistic side note, it’s interesting that “weapon” seems to be the one word we see that’s similar between Dwarfish and Lionese—that’s not the kind of word that’s usually a loanword, so is it a situation like Romanian vs. other Romance languages where they’re related but one has so much vocabulary influence from a language in a different family that it’s hard to tell? Or is it random coincidence, like the Aboriginal Australian language in which the word for “dog” is “dog”, having evolved from completely different roots into the same set of sounds?)
- WOROL and WOROLOB have meanings related to “big”, and WORNKI has also been proposed to mean “bigger”, so what about WORENT?
Of course, not every set of words that share letters is actually related, these are just possibilities.
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I was thinking these might be “floor” and “ceiling.” But it could also easily be a typo; Zarf already corrected some in the distant past and it’s not inconceivable that a few more slipped through.
Yes, it certainly fits the context.
Yes, “perhaps” or “maybe” is the most likely suggestion so far for KOONA I think. I agree that “may be” is more natural but “maybe” is not impossible in the latter sentence. (Just an example that doesn’t fit the vocab we already know: “It maybe hurts, but it won’t kill”).
-ENT means “re-” for the verbs in the ending message. So I was thinking PRESENT could be literally “revolve”, but I agree that “turn” is far more natural.
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It’s a minor point, but I want to reiterate it since the current translation still has
[Zaol stop bien bisylen neat el ta thaln.]
[Your score has gone up by one point.]
Vas tobii man Daimar Up bien pase se garsty kudorii.
Too bad Red Hat stock is in the pits lately.
BIEN is the past participle of “be.” So I think the Red Hat passage should be “… has been in the pits…”, and any translation of the score message has to have “to be” in it somewhere.
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I think this is probably just coincidence. If you didn’t the same thing in English you’d find ALLOW mixed in with a bunch of words derived from ALL-, right?
I’d love to find a way to make this work for FRELM in particular, since there’s very little else in the way of contextual clues to the identity of the DUCK FRELM.
I think that kind of relationship is very much supported by what we’ve seen of the relationship between English and our mystery language so far. (I hesitate to call it “Lionese”, because that ought to mean something like “gold language”, but I don’t have a better name to propose. Unless we follow Emily Short’s suggestion that this is actually the author’s native Zarfian.)
I’ve been assuming SHI was “large” or “big”, but I hadn’t put it into the translation document since nothing else depends on it. SHIAR looks like a comparative adjective, but the obvious translation (“the ceiling is higher here …”) conflicts with OLT=“high”. Unless … maybe SHI is “rough”? SHISYLE=“to move in a rough fashion”, i.e. hastily or hurriedly, and SHIFAN=“to speak roughly”, e.g. “grunt” or “growl”? Since we translated the dwarf’s dialogue, SHIFAN as “shout” hasn’t sat quite right for me in that sentence.
Not sure about SHIAN, though.
“… and maybe fight a few dwarfs” definitely wouldn’t sound out of place there.
I think this one is a coincidence; I’m more inclined to believe WORNKI is “distorted” (literally “wonky”).
We started by taking it as pretty much axiomatic that the Inform library messages were phrased identically to how they would be in English. So I’d argue that whatever the actual grammar of the message is, it has to be something that can be idiomatically localised as “your score has gone up by one point”. Are you suggesting that BIEN BISYLEN should more literally be something like “has been raised”?
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Gonna annoyingly make a suggesting that I’m too lazy to implement right now, but: would there be any value to someone pulling up a list of the most common English words, and then checking which ones we don’t have translations for yet?
EDIT: It has also occurred to me that attempting to guess the identity of an unknown word, given its surrounding context, is literally the thing that masked language models like BERT are trained to do, but I don’t know whether turning to a language model for suggestions would violate the spirit of the exercise.
This doesn’t help much, but I don’t think we’re going to get any direct confirmation of what color PACKAGE is. So I propose that PACKAGE is green and PACSILIM is emerald purely because both Adventure and Zork have a large emerald as a treasure, and neither has a large sapphire. (Zork does have a sapphire-encrusted bracelet, but that feels different from an emerald big enough to creln your firf on.)
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The trick is that the most common English words vary a lot by genre. The ones that are consistently the most common across genres—things like “the” and “us”—are the ones we already have; we’re mostly looking for content words instead of function words now.