DemonApologist's IFComp 2024 Responses

67 | WHY POUT?

67 | WHY POUT?
by: Andrew Schultz

Progress:

  • I completed this game in around 1h50m. I made relatively little use of the walkthrough, solving the majority of the puzzles on my own (the suffering is evident in some sections of this transcript, such as when I was desperately trying to reach “some islands” which turned out not to even be a puzzle phrase). So yeah, it wasn’t a truly clean win, but I feel proud of how I did overall, that was tough!

Things I Appreciated:

  • There’s something so brilliant about the puzzle design. You think: all I need to do is say these two words out loud, how hard could it be? It turns out, surprisingly hard. (This game would’ve benefited from me recording the sound in the room I was playing it, where I would just say the random combinations of words out loud in different ways over and over again.) Some of the puzzles just solved themselves instantly the moment I read them, but there are plenty that are quite deceptive. So I honestly commend the level of depth that comes from what is on the surface, a simple puzzle type. I was caught off guard by what a good challenge it was.

  • I liked that there were occasional hints that get you on the right track. After a while, you realize that you get a certain message when you have one word correct but not both; and another message if you have a homophone of a correct word. These proved to be pivotal in many situations where I was stuck.

  • It was interesting how you start from a place of knowing nothing and gradually piece together a story of what happened through this game of restorative cognition. At first I was so confused by the game’s cover art, like why is there this cartoony drawing of a DND party that has nothing to do with anything? But then a few puzzles later it finally clicked for me what was going on, generally. I like that there was an overarching narrative in the chaos.

Feedback/Recommendations/Questions:

  • Like any word games, there’s a lot of variance in what people from different backgrounds will find challenging due to cultural/dialect specificity. Since there were some (to me) UK English oddities, I struggled with puzzles that used words I was unfamiliar with. The most vexing instance of this was “naff,” which I read phonetically as rhyming with “laugh,” but based on the solution to that puzzle, seems to actually rhyme with “off” for the solution to make sense. I did actually solve that puzzle, but it was a miserable time to get past that puzzle as it was a major progression gate. The thing is, there really isn’t a solution to this. It would be similarly vexing if the puzzles were written using US English dialect/slang that created similar issues for UK readers, etc. I don’t think there really is a solution to this, except maybe to be careful of gating off major progression behind a puzzle that is more likely than not to be specific to a dialect, and leave that for the less linear puzzles that can be done out of order?

  • In general, I thought that the individual word puzzles were great. Where the game created noticeable issues for me was in terms of navigation and times when I had solved puzzles for the future but was unable to advance on what I was supposed to be doing. I think at my worst I was at +4 ahead (this happened because I made a huge error and never went east from the starting area. I went north, west, and south so many times, but for some reason, just missed the east direction entirely). It felt arbitrary that some puzzles were just available to work on in a room, but became unusable because the game needed me to solve a puzzle in a completely unrelated location. I think I especially struggled with the navigation/inter-location dynamic because of the surreal way that everything is written, so I struggled to distinguish between rooms that had more puzzles to solve, and rooms where I couldn’t advance at all but couldn’t realize that.

  • In a bizarre moment, the game produced a self-aware bug message. I will relay that to you now: “Oops, I somehow forgot to reset think-cue entry for grow vial. This is a trivial bug–but please let me know!” This is me letting you know. This isn’t a bad thing, I just found it really funny to imagine that the author had spent time programming the game to produce context specific bug messages like this, it really caught me off guard.

  • This is a minor thing, but I found the dead mall to be a somewhat immersion-breaking location. Weirdly, this is not even the first game that I played for these IF Comp responses that has a dead mall randomly in a fantasy setting, but it felt odd here given how much of the area seemed like more of a typical fantasy setting (if portrayed in a surreal and disorienting way due to the game’s premise). Maybe it means another sense of “mall”? But considering you encounter objects like fliers, it was definitely a shopping mall in my mind’s eye.

What I learned about IF writing/game design:

  • This game shows both the benefits and challenges of basing a parser again around word puzzles. The thing I asked myself while playing is, was a parser game a good delivery mechanism for these word puzzles? Yes, and no. Yes in the sense that, it would be far less satisfying to solve a completely linear or decontextualized list of word puzzles. Having them built together into a narrative made them more fun and engaging to solve, and the nonlinear aspect allows you to put puzzles on pause to work on others. At the same, I encountered friction when I had to remind myself to do parser-game style commands (like checking my inventory to look at something I hadn’t realized I had received as an item), or trying to make connections between distant locations. Overall, though, I feel like this was a successful entry in showing the kind of language games one can perform using this type of game engine.

  • Weird things can happen when feedback isn’t enough to discourage a player from a puzzle. I spent a ridiculous amount of time on “some islands” thinking it was a puzzle, despite none of my guesses even triggering one of the “you’re kind of close” hints. And I just kept trying, because other things had seemed like I had exhausted every possible option only for the correct answer to suddenly materialize in my mind, so I thought something similar would happen with this one. It makes me think there’s a certain challenge in communicating the information: there is more to do here but you cannot advance this puzzle until you advance a puzzle somewhere else. I really just needed to be directly told that, but I couldn’t pick up the hint.

Quote:

  • “The crude orc doesn’t have any strategy, per se.”

Lasting Memorable Moment:

  • I think it was when I finally had the breakthrough to guess “nah phase” which was probably the hardest individual puzzle for me in the game. I couldn’t believe that I solved that without the walkthrough.

DemonApologist_WhyPout.txt (144.2 KB)

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Congratulations!

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Well. This has certainly been one of the threads of all time :skull:

First, some minor custodial notes:

  • I’ve added an alphabetical index of links to the responses in the first thread, to hopefully make this sprawling mess of a thread a little more navigable for posterity.

  • I still haven’t played 18 | THE MASTER’S LAIR, so one further response is possible in the event that ends up working out so that I can play it! Although, part of me thinks it’s also kind of funny for this thread to have lore about a “lost media” mysterious missing eighteenth response. Either way, I accept the outcome of however this ends up going.

Other than that, I guess I leave this thread for open discussion? It feels weird to try and make some kind of grand sweeping gesture about it. I mean really what did I even do? I made an internet forum thread. :skull:. But it feels weirder to just… say nothing.

So here are some more notes:

  • If you have any questions about specific game responses you want me to clarify or discuss further, and think that is best done here rather than a game-specific thread, I am happy to do that. As you can tell I will talk about just about anything if prompted to do so even if I kind of embarrass myself in the process. :skull:

  • Additionally, if you have any questions or comments about my overall experience doing these responses/this collective response project, or anything else, I am happy to answer those as well.

  • Also—I mean, I’ve shared a lot of my preferences and perspectives. So selfishly, if you have any specific inspiration of future things I should play/read (you thought: oh, this game has strong DemonApologist energy), feel free to tell me either here or in a private message? I do need a break, so I won’t dive right into more IF for a bit—except for The Master’s Lair which has dibs on my time—but I am happy to be pointed to work that you think I would connect with and engage with it in a more leisurely way.

Finally: thank you to all the authors/contributors for making all these games/pieces and joining me on this journey! I went through a huge range of emotions while playing, and I feel like I had this high-dose cosmic slice of humanity that I never otherwise would’ve experienced if I hadn’t done all this. Every single game that I played had value, some spark of inspiration that the author did well, evidence of careful effort, or something I could learn from the process of engaging with it. Yes, even Leah Thargic deserves their flowers. It takes a lot of guts to put something out into the world for people to read/judge/criticize, and all of the authors did that. Kudos for that.

Take care,
DemonApologist

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This was so fun to read through! I’m glad you kept up the motivation to finish - and boy, you were fast!

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Firstly, I just want to say thank you for the amazing effort you’ve put in here - to give such detailed and thoughtful responses for all of the games is some feat, and I’ve found your insights really enlightening and enjoyable.

You mentioned in your opening post that you had recently worked on your first IF game, and were keen to learn more about the form. I’m really interested to know whether this process has given you any inspiration for IF works of your own? Are there any tools or approaches you’re hoping to try as a result?

Thanks again for your hard work!

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An absolute marathon of a reviews thread, amazing work.

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Congrats! Excellent work!

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Thanks very much for your in-depth review of “Doctor Who And The Dalek Super-Brain”. Appreciated!

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I don’t usually respond to reviews, but this was funny because I was actually watching you play (didn’t know it was you of course) through the IFComp transcripts and couldn’t decide if what you said was good or bad!

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And the reviews are of such high quality! Great thread.

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Oh my god, that is so morbidly funny to imagine that someone was watching me play in real time :skull: And I’m just wandering around that area for what must’ve been well over a hundred turns trying to test the rules. :sob:

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Congratulations and well done, DemonApologist !

Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.

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Thanks for the kind comments, everyone!

Yes! Throughout this process I’ve been brainstorming notes for a project that I want to do next for EctoComp, which would be a choice-based narrative (probably still in Twine, though I might switch from Harlowe to different Twine type, I’m still not sure yet). Like with my previous project, this was a (static fiction) story idea I’ve had for a while but never much motivation or reason to pursue it. I found it empowering to have a deadline and a way to finally get that story out of me, so I hope I can experience that again.

I think/hope that EctoComp is a good fit for me, based on the timing and nominally horror theming (since dark fantasy is my genre preference). Something that was hard about the first project was that it was in an unranked jam, so really, I just kind of jettisoned the project out into the void and have no real sense of what anyone thought of it or whether my intentions bore out in people’s experience of it. Though I worry about how I would feel in a ranked competition where I could end up getting really negative feedback or a demoralizing ranking result, I think at the moment, I need some way of evaluating how a project went other than my own personal reflection to grow in the medium.

My main struggle is less with the writing itself (well like—obviously writing is always a struggle because it’s such a precise and demanding craft, it’s never truly easy) and more with the fact that I have no programming/computer science background. I think from what I can tell about programming from the outside, it’s more than just learning the language of the programming tool, but it requires a kind of programming logic that I don’t really have a grasp of.

I can develop all the opinions in the world as to what I think makes for a satisfying puzzle or UI or what have you, and give that feedback to someone else, but that in no way advances my practical ability to program those things into existence. I do have some curiosity about what it would be like to design a parser game, but just looking at technical threads in the forums of people asking questions about their code, I really cannot make sense of the snippets being posted. I can’t expect anyone to tutor me in how to code something that complex, but I would probably need a large amount of guidance to even arrive at Baby’s First Parser Room™. So I think in that sense, unless someone can convince me as to reasonable approach in building those skills starting from where I’m at, I would probably be better serving the parser game community by offering beta reading/critique/suggestions than actually trying to program one.

Going into the EctoComp project I think my priorities are:

  • (1) Highest priority: Write a compelling and well-edited story. If I spend a lot of time fiddling with other stuff and let the actual quality of the narrative slip past me, I would be disappointed with myself.

  • (2) Medium priority: I really need to learn basics in how to control the visual presentation more and be able to customize it. I also want to be able to include art, something I wanted to do with the previous project but was unable to figure out how to do in the extreme time crunch of making a project in 6 days. Even doing something incredibly basic like adding a toggle between two color schemes (i.e., light mode vs. dark mode) is something that I don’t know how to do yet. I don’t want to be stuck with the default Twine look forever just because I don’t really get what “CSS” even is, like how am I ever going to get better at visual design if I don’t feel like I have agency to actively decide how it looks :skull:

  • (3) Lower priority: Impactful choices/interactive flourishes. If I end up doing the first two priorities more and present a mostly linear narrative that at least looks nice and is well edited, I would still count that as a success and accept the critiques that it’s “not interactive enough” as the price of my prioritization.

Perhaps a wise thing for me to do at some point before my memory of these responses completely cools would be to gather all the “things I learned” from the responses, condense each one down into a central point, and group them together by categories. That would be a helpful post just to kind of remind myself what I learned as a guide to go back to when I am struggling with a certain topic to see if that’s useful. And even if I never get to benefit from (for example) whatever I’ve gleaned about puzzle design, I guess it could be theoretically useful for someone else who is authoring puzzles? Then again, I kind of just assume that most things I talked about are things that have probably been discussed a lot already by people who have been in this space for longer than the 1 month that I’ve been here.

Sorry for responding to your question with whatever this essay was. :skull:. But thanks for asking, I found it helpful to check in and tease out some of my thoughts on the matter.

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I would just like to encourage you to make a start on making your piece, regardless of whether you feel ready. There will always be aspects of anything you’re stronger/weaker in, and sometimes the fun of making something is trying to work out how to use your strengths and cover up your weaknesses.

I would also say don’t be afraid to reach out to friends/acquaintances and see if they’re interested in collaborating. I know this is nerve racking, but expecting one person to be able to programme, write, do CSS and create graphics for a side hustle is quite unrealistic. It’s very common at the least to get someone else to do your cover image, but there are many other tasks you can delegate. If you know someone who has the skills you’re looking for and you can effectively spec what you want, reach out to them and see if they can help. The worst that can happen is they don’t do it.

Finally if you feel like there’s a specific thing or mechanic you want to work on you can always try making a tiny sketch project just to see how it works. For example if you want to make a way to toggle between two colour schemes why not make a toy project consisting of a single screen that does nothing more than switch between colours? Breaking down large tasks like this might be teaching you to suck eggs, but it helps me to work on smaller technical things before working on larger things.

(For example in metallic red, I had already made toy implementations of the hydroponics station, the day/night cycle, and the console tabs a year or so before the idea for the full project and a way to knit them together came to me)

Overall I think that from reading your reviews you have already developed insight into what you like and how things work, you clearly have a strong interest in seeing projects through and a “good work ethic”. I think you’re in a great spot to embark on a project yourself!

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No apology necessary, that was a fantastic response! It’s always exciting to have more people making IF and there’s such a wonderful supportive community here for people who are just starting out. Best of luck and I can’t wait to see what you make!

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You might have a look at Grim Baccaris’s three-volume Twine Grimoire – tutorials on customizing Twine projects with CSS and HTML…

Also toward the bottom of the Twine Resource Masterlist post there are a bunch of people’s pre-made templates that you could possibly use or look at.

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Seconding this! I have a bunch of these types of projects in my Twine folder, including three called various versions of “test” where I just throw stuff I’m experimenting with to play around until I get it working, then copy the relevant code to my actual project.

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I would recommend the winner of last year’s IFComp, a fantasy comedy parser game featuring—well, it’s right there in the title :smile:: Dr Ludwig and the Devil - Details

No romancing the devil there, but for something more along those lines… idle hands - Details

And a very short demon-y game where you are the demon! Demon Hatching - Details

(Will likely return with some non-demon/devil-themed recs later too haha)

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Thanks so much for all your hard work! This thread has been a fantastic read.

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Great job!

My opinion is, 5 reviews is really good, 10 is great, and anything above that is real dedication, whether you are a new reviewer or an old one.

Re: review of my own entry, your observations were well worth the wait!

I have a few points I may edit in later but the error message is a sort of catchall – I rewrote some code in a core module, and it was overall a step forward but I knew there were (relatively small) steps back & so I wanted to raise a flag!

(Also, these sorts of cleanup errors after rewriting code tend to be located around several other bugs both in the game and core code. The Broken Windows Theory of bug-finding/fixing, so to speak.) So I appreciate the transcript to help me reproduce stuff. Zarf’s python scripts allow me to use your exact commands.

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