Ask a blind person anything… Within reason

The ultimate beginners. :slight_smile: Still, doesn’t mean they’re beginner-friendly. When we see something new and are exploring it, we may not mind that it’s not really meant for beginners, we’re having fun discovering it… and it’s not like we have alternatives of its type to turn to. The designers also didn’t go “we have to make this accessible to beginners”, they go “we’re making a new and exciting thing, what can we achieve and what can we get away it?”.

So, Zork is where many people began, but with modern (justified) expectations, puzzles such as the egg and the diamond and being “frotzd” to game-unwinnable-ness, and even simply the maze and the lantern limit… it’s not really beginner-friendly.

Mind you, I still find it preferable to Colossal Cave and, brrr, Acheton (I might possibly enjoy Acheton if it allowed for a lot more interactions responses, and therefore player feedback, than it does… but I don’t think so).

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@Unseen_misfit16

I just started playing with Windows Narrator and NVDA and though I’m not familiar with traversing a webpage very well, it feels like a shit-show with most websites. I’m beginning to appreciate the obstacles of accessibility design. Anyway, I had asked a couple of questions that I think you missed in the landslide of replies you had to sort through. I’ll ask them here again with a couple more questions.

1.) Which screen reader do you use? And, out of curiousity, what voice, pitch, and rate do you prefer?

2.) With a choice-based game, what are your thoughts about using a gamepad to play it versus a keyboard?

3.) What is your favourite interactive fiction game for blind accessible reasons, and please elaborate on why that was?

4.) What are some tips for navigating webpages with a screen reader? Pressing F9 for reader view in Firefox and Edge is my favourite way to read a webpage now, even with working eyeballs. :wink:

Thanks for your time, Alyssia.

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I feel like giving Zork to a casual gamer who’s never heard of IF before would be like introducing them to Mario with The Lost Levels or action RPGs with a Souls-like. Unless they’re looking for a hard challenge that is arguably unfair at times, they’re probably going to bounce off and go do something else, especially in this modern age of there being more free content on the internet than anyone could ever consume in their life time… Back in the 70s and 80s, computer games in general where kind of niche and the technical limitations of the day meant challenge was often the only way to get any longevity out of games with a defined ending, plus, if you had a home computer and could afford to own games, that was already a sizeable investment, and playing a different game or doing something non-game related usually meant another significant investment… if you were lucky, you might have access to a public library or have cable TV or a local Arcade where if you didn’t like one game, you were only out a quarter and could try a different game for just a quarter, but even those are limited compared to the contents of just one site like IFDB, IFArchive, Project Gutenberg, YouTube, etc. never mind the parts of the Internet the big corporations wish didn’t exist.

As for Hal’s questions:

  1. I use Orca in the GUI and espeakup in the linux console. I use the default British English espeak-ng voice with both, including rate and pitch. Not sure what values Orca uses for these pitch and rate settings, but espeakup has hotkeys for changing volume, rate, and pitch on the fly and identifies the settings I use as pitch 5 and rate 2. If I had to guess, these pitch settings roughly correspond to a human tenor and a normal conversational rate of speech.

  2. I haven’t played much choice, but pre-blindness, I mostly played games using gamepad style contrls, and would have no objections to trying a game built for gamepad.

  3. No game comes to mind in this regard.

  4. Orca has a large number of navigational hotkeys that, when browsing a web page, will jump between html elements of a particular type. It varies greatly from site to site, and some times between different pages on the same site, but a lot of it comes down to memorizing some details about how a given page is laid out and using that to effectively jump to where I want to be on the page. Last time I used NVDA or JAWS, they had most of the same navigational hotkeys, though admittedly, that was back around 2018 and I used NVDA more than JAWS back then.
    Amaong Orca’s navigational hotkeys are
    h for headings
    1-6 on the number row for headings at specific levels.
    e for text entries
    r for radio buttons
    b for buttons
    x for check boxes
    c for comboboxes,
    l for lists
    i for list items
    t for tables
    s for sperators
    q for block quotes
    g for graphics
    k for links
    u for unvisited links
    v for visited links
    a for javascript clickables.

and shifting to move backwards through the page and I believe alt+shifting brings up a list of all elements of that type on the current page.

Orca+a will switch between browse and focus modes, the orca key defaulting to insert in desktop layout mode and caps lock in laptop layout.

When encountering an entirely new to me page, I usually start with headings, followed by lists and tables, with most of the hotkeys related to form elements mostly being helpful for navigating forms that have a wonky tab ordering or finding search boxes or quick reply/comment forms on places like blogs or forums. And sometimes, I have to fall back on ctrl+F because the page’s layout provides nothing useful for getting to the part of a page I care about, and there are some websites where a hotkey I use almost nowhere else becomes useful(e.g. when reading a story on Fanfiction.net, I find jumping to the combobox that lets you jump to specific chapters is the best way to find the beginning of the text of the current chapter, and on pages on Archive of our Own listing stories, the summary field is formated as block quotes, making it easy to jump straight to that, and after jumping to the summary, the link to the latest chapter is a single tab away… Though I also make use of headings(titles are level 4 headings, tags start with a level 6 heading, date last updated is the line immeiately above the tags heading, the next page link is 1 shift+tab from the title of the first story on the current page). Admittedly, it can be a real pain in the anatomy to figure out how to efficiently navigate a newly discovered website or when a site you’ve been using for years changes their layout, but for familiar websites that never change their layout, one kind of develops a sense of how to get around efficiently that you don’t really have to think about, kind of the digital equivalent of being able to navigate your own home in the middle of the night versus stumbling in the dark in an unfamiliar place… except I’ve known sighted people who become useless in their own homes where they’ve lived for years the moment the power goes out, so I’m not sure how much of my comfort navigating in the dark pre-blindness was already developing a reliance on non-visual senses as someone with only one working eye with severely decreased visual acuity versus people who rely on vision more than average standing out for being clumsy in the dark… or maybe efficiently navigating a webpage with screen reader navigation hotkeys is like knowing a game’s map like the back of your hand versus playing a game for the first time(and this can apply to both games like Zork and games like Zelda.

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I’m curious. How useful is describing the colour of things to a blind person? I’m just talking about the utility of such adjectives; obviously it’s common in books and blind people are used to reading about the beauty of pigments, but in text geared for blind people specifically, does it serve any useful purpose? I think it would be like describing the atomic weight of a metallic object and expecting that to be useful information to enhance the mental picture. Thoughts on this?

On the subject of colours, I am often reminded of a scene in the film Mask where Rocky “shows” colours and other stuff to a blind girl using tactile senses. A hot rock is “red”, and when it cools down it’s “pink”. “Billowy clouds” are cotton. A frozen rock is “ice blue”.

Actually… from the perspective of a blind person, is this actually meaningful or is it malarkey? It sounds meaningful to a sighted person.

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Naturally, I can’t speak for those blind from birth, but speaking as someone who went blind in his mid-20s and is now nearly 40, I appreciate mention of color in descriptive text and often focus on color language in my own writing.

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Years ago I read a book I suspect you may be familiar with. “Crashing Through" by Robert Kurson.

Reading about Mr. May, and especially others before him, like Sidney Bradford, has always filled me with a sort of melancholy. I wonder, in their shoes, if I might choose to remain blind had the same choice been provided for me.

So, all that said, and only if the questions are acceptable and not unintentionally offensive, one, is the phenomenon of blind from birth adults regaining their sight late in adulthood controversial within the blind community, and two, do the blind contemplate how they might answer this question themselves if medical science advances in a way to make it relevant to them during their lifetimes?

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What are your thoughts on phrases like “the blind leading the blind”? Do you find them offensive or humorous or a mix of both or neither?

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Can’t say I recall any controversy regarding individuals gaining sight later in life, but there are blind folks who aren’t interested in a cure for their own blindness. I myself would love to regain my lost sight, but I wouldn’t want to be a guinea pig for a untested cure for my condition.

As for blind leading the blind, I’m not bothered by it, and plenty of blind people still use see in its idiomatic meaning of conprehension/understanding and frequently describe their consumption of visual media as watching despite that not literally being the case. If anything, I’d say most of the blind people I’ve spoken to on the subject are more likely to be amused or annoyed by sighted people trying to avoid sight-based idioms than they are to be offended by the use of sight-based idioms.

Also, despite being blind in my right eye since infancy and attending a school for the blind for most of my K-12 education, it only clicked with me just how often we use sight-related language in an idiomatic/figurative manner after I went blind in my left eye in my mid-20s.

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Oh yes, the blind leading the blind can be quite an entertaining one to use. I often do use language relating to vision even if I’m not meaning it literally.

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How accessible are markdown annotations, both in general and specifically for mathematical notation?

I was working on some documentation, and it occurred to me that there’s a lot of stuff in the documents that is consumed by the browser as formatting information, but I have no idea how e.g. LaTEX markdown is handled by a screen reader. For example, in my documentation I have an equation:

$$
\Delta_{i,j} = \eta \cdot y_{j} \cdot (x_{i} - y_{j} \cdot w_{i,j})
\tag{1}
$$

As I’m typing this it looks like the forum software doesn’t support LaTEX markdown, so rendered it just looks like a bunch of text that it would be…uninformative to read symbol-by-symbol.

If I was whiteboarding this and saying the equation out loud it would be something like “delta sub i j equals eta dot y sub j dot quantity x sub i minus y sub j dot w sub i j close quantity”. Although in practice it’d probably omit the indices (the sub i and sub j bits) unless I was going out of my way to be precise.

Just wondering if there’s anything specific to do on the document authoring end to make this more screen reader friendly.

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For comparison, here’s roughly the same thing in Unicode:

Δᵢⱼ = η · yⱼ · (xᵢ - yⱼ · wᵢⱼ)

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I am so sorry for not replying for so long, I’ve been quite busy lately. Honestly, the maths seems to be read out as random symbols, the second message you sent caused it to switch to a different language voice so perhaps it’s not recognising the characters properly.

Also for anyone who uses TUMBLR, I have a blindness related blog over there where you guys can ask even more questions. I’ll also be posting a little bit about blindness and reblogging stuff related to it. Here’s the link: @lets-talk-blindness on Tumblr