@Unseen_misfit16
I used to work at a jewellery store and dealt with a few blind customers. I was always careful to let them know that I was going to hold their hand and see if a ring fit snugly or not. I imagine someone grabbing or touching you without warning would also be unwelcome.
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If someone rushes to your “help” unasked, like when you’re entering public transport… is it a welcome thing, like “oh thank you, that’s nice”, or annoying, like “yeah, I know, I can do stuff by myself, thank you very much”? But I imagine this may be a personal thing… regardless, how is it for you, if I may ask?
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On the note of IF accessibility, nothing specific comes to mind for puzzles that were hard because they were represented visually in text, but I think that might be in part because I kind of suck at Infocom-hard puzzles and don’t like using walkthroughs because IF is a genre where a walkthrough takes the challenge from guide dang it to might as well read a transcript whereas most mainstream games, a walkthrough tends to take things from “this feels impossible” to “okay, I know what to do, but am I good enough to actually do it??” Or in other words, beating a tough boss in an action or strategy game is still fulfilling even when you come in knowing how to hurt it, clearing a puzzle in a parser game by copying the solution from a walkthrough is kind of boring.
I will say that I’ve tried playing some text-based games beyond IF that presented things in a way I found too cumbersome to parse with a screen reader to have any fun with it. For example, a version of Backgammon for the Linux Console that tried to ASCII art the arrangement of men on the board was pretty impenetrable for me and I would have probably done better with a list of occupied points and the number of men of which color on each… e.g. it was trying some thing like
1 WWW
2 RR
3
4 WWWWW
5 W
6 R
etc. but I think it was doing the points in columns, not rows and with no way to tell which column a given piece is in reading an entire line of text, but all I really care about is like
3 white on 1
2 red on 2
5 white on 4
1 white on 5
1 red on 6
etc.
Also, there’s a Linux console version of 2048 I love playing and would probably count my favorite game in the “I can actually play this” category and not the “I miss playing this” category but has some subpar things to its presentation, including:
- No way to tell where gaps are.
- lots of superflous white space that slows down board review.
- the nature of progressively higher value tiles being powers of two and the increasing syllable count meaning the more high-value tiles on tehe board, the longer it takes to read the board, in a game where it already takes twice as many moves to reach the next milestone as the previous one.
- Not strictly presentation, but I use primarily caps lock+u and caps lock+o for reviewing the board and the game controls exclusively with arrow keys, so I’m constantly moving my right hand between the arrow keyes and home position to the point the option to use a, s, and d for left, down, and right would be nice(though omitting w for up would be preferable, the way the game works you generally want to pick one direction to avoid moving in unless that direction is the only legal move or you find yourself in a rare position for it to be beneficial, and I’ve made up my forbidden direction).
On the note of descriptions, I didn’t go blind until my mid 20s and I retain a strong ability for visualization, so I’m not bothered in the least by descriptions with very visual language.
On the note of speech synth, some do like to crank their speech rate up to like 500 wpm or even 800 wpm, making their output sound like gibberish to anyone who hasn’t developed a skill for speed listening. I am not one of those people, and in fact, I struggle with even mild speed up, be it from my screen reader or recordings of actual people(exception for speeding up music, I quite like the nightcore genre). That said, my preferred synth is espeak-ng with its default British English voice. It’s a bit flat and clearly synthetic, but it strikes a nice middle ground between the overly robotic voices of old school synths, which I find grating after a while and the more naturalistic sound of modern synths, which I find tend to get a bit uncanny valley if used for more than short responses to questions or reading menu options in an app(my portable media player and my echo use more natural sounding voices that I don’t mind for when my echo answers a prompt or navigating the file manager on the media player, but I probably wouldn’t want to listen to them read an eBook over espeak).
As for things being self-voiced, it can be handy in places where a screen reader breaks down, but where possible, making something work with screen readers is probably better, at least if the self-voicing is just using TTS. I once played a Visual novel that used TTS in places where the budget didn’t allow everything to be voiced acted and that worked well enough, but I can’t help thinking it might have been more seemless had my screen reader been able to read the game’s text instead of the game having to do it.
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Okay, in regards to letting a blind person know you’re going to touch them this is super helpful, as unexpected touch can be startling or uncomfortable for many people. As to offering to help on public transport, for me I don’t mind if people ask me and it can prove useful sometimes when I do actually need help, I don’t often feel upset if people offer and in fact I always thank them for offering even though most of the time I’m fine. The only thing I would say is, always ask if someone needs assistance and if they do, they’ll probably instruct you as to what they need help with and make sure to do only that. If you want to do more than ask and gain consent First. If this person says no unless they are actively in danger, they’re probably okay and you can leave them be.
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As a sighted person, most of my experiences are visual, and if you asked me to recall something, I’d tell you what I saw first. When I’m talking to blind/low-vision people, I catch myself doing this and intentionally try to add some other senses in there. I know that blindness is a spectrum, but do you feel like visual descriptions are inconsiderate? Or do you tolerate them with the understanding that they’re a primary sense for many? Or do you find them grating? Do you prefer tangible characteristics?
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Hi Hidnook. Don’t worry, most blind people don’t find visual descriptions irritating. In fact, it can be really interesting. I have some vision but I’ve never had what anyone would call normal functioning vision, so I find it really interesting to hear about people speak about what certain things look like and sometimes I even ask questions of my own if I feel I’m close with the other person or that they might not mind
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The toilet paper roll installed so it dispenses over or under?
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I thought I’d share something others might find useful.
I had a blind test player for a game, and they got severely stuck on a puzzle, where you need to replace the liquid in a clear container, without an NPC noticing that anything has changed. You do this be replacing the liquid with another liquid that has the same colour. I didn’t describe the colour, but both are liquids that pretty much anyone would know just about what they look like. Except if you’ve never had eye-sight - then this was indeed a very hard puzzle.
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As an illustrator I work heavily with images and try to write alt text/image descriptions for my comics. I’ve never seen this addressed much in the guides I’ve read, even in things meant to be guides for accessible comics.
Let’s say I have an image where multiple people are speaking with simulaneous drawings. I tend to write alt text/image descriptions so that the dialogue tag/action is first, because I imagine that the screen reader would not differentiate between dialogue easily otherwise, for ex:
John says, “How are you doing?” and reaches out to shake Jane’s hand.
Jane replies, “Great!” She smiles warmly and shakes his hand.
Jill says irritatedly, “Why don’t I get a greeting?”
In my usual writing, I tend to write it so the dialogue tag is last, or omit it.
“How are you doing?” John says, and reaches out to shake Jane’s hand.
“Great!” Jane smiles warmly and shakes his hand.
“Why don’t I get a greeting?” says Jill with irritation.
Does this actually matter at all?
Relatedly, for comics and complex illustrations, do you think image descriptions are alright in the alt attribute of the image, or should they be below the image in another element?
If it’s the latter, how should that separate element be referenced? Should the alt text just say “image description below”? Should the alt text be a short description like “Comic strip of two people talking in a grocery store” with an aria element that ties to the image description that actually has the dialogue and details? Something else?
I’ve seen conflicting advice on this, mostly from sighted people. Some wordpress plugins differentiate alt text and image descriptions when uploading images, so the question has come up several times.
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When I change a toilet paper roll, I make sure there’s no paper left on the roll, carefully romoving the bit that’s usually glued to the roll when possible, tear the roll off the spindle, usually undoing it along the seam, and feed the undone roll to my paper shredder as I do with most paper waste. I then carefully free the end of the new roll and hang it on the spindle so the loose end hangs in front of the roll and is easily grabbed. For the record, the spindle is oriented horizontally and parallel to the wall. I might do differently if the spindle was oriented vertically or orthogonal to the wall or if there were no spindle available for hanging a roll of toilet paper,but for how its oriented in this case, a loose end hanging behind the roll would hang against the wall and be defficiult to grab hold of, especially since the mouting bracket for the spindel is located behind the shoulder when sitting on the toilet.
As for alt text, I’m not familiar with all the nitty-gritty of what the HTML is doing under the hood, but I’m pretty sure most screen readers default to reading the alt text when the reading cursor moves over an image, and if the alt text on the image matches a print caption visible to sighted viewers, that text will be read twice, but again, I’m not familiar with all the nitty gritty of HTML and I really only have on going experience with the Orca screen reader as far as webpages go.
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Related question for alt text: I’m often not sure what to do about the alt text for images that also have captions. Sometimes the caption basically describes what’s in the image, to the point that alt text seems like it would be redundant and get in the way, but sometimes the caption is basically a joke and it seems like alt text would be helpful to give context for the joke. But it feels weird to write alt text for some of the images on the page and not others. Does it make sense to omit alt text for images that already have descriptive captions, or should all images have alt text for consistency?
Also, a specific situation you see a lot on social media is infographic-style images containing a lot of text that’s also present in a text post. For example, an event announcement might include a graphic with a bunch of date & time information that is also present in text. Is it helpful to include all that in the alt text (so that you know what text is in the image, in case you were planning on sharing it with others or something), or should it be omitted to avoid redundancy?
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Hello, and thanks for making this thread. I’ve never actually talked to a blind person in real life as far as I can recall (only online), so the posts have been informative and really interesting to read. My question, if you don’t mind, is about the Interactive Fiction Database or IFDB: I’ve long wondered exactly how accessible the website is to screen readers. Do you frequently use IFDB, or do you not care for the site? If you do use IFDB, is it easy to use?
Shucks, asking this question does make me look a bit like I’m collecting marketing info for a customer survey.
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Thanks for mentioning this! It reminds me of something I wanted to ask about.
So, in contrast, I have spoken to blind folks in real life (Not that that in and of itself is super notable, to be clear. Blind people are just people too, not unicorns.). In fact, I’ve had some coworkers that were blind. One individual in particular, her name was Mary, liked to listen in to conversations at our admittedly somewhat nerdier lunch/break table. Discussions ranged wildly, but pop culture, videogames, and comics all came up frequently enough. She’d chime in from time to time with a joke or a comment, but mostly she was content to sit back and listen.
One day, for whatever reason, the others weren’t there, and I found myself alone at the table with Mary. We made small talk for a bit, and she made a comment to the effect that she was disappointed almost everyone was gone that day. That prompted me to ask what about our discussions was so interesting for her. We were just a bunch of nerds, after all. She then explained that many of the things we spoke about were effectively out of reach for her. Listening to use talk about it let her experience a tiny bit of it second hand, including the excitement.
That was striking for me, even if it should have been obvious in hindsight, and I asked her if she’d played any videogames at all. Other than an audio only version of Doom she briefly played at someone else’s house once, the answer was no. So, then I asked her how comfortable she was with a screen reader and typing. She responded that she was very comfortable with both, as she spent quite a bit of time online, as it was another venue to experience the world still open to her. Then (I’m sure you can see where I’m going here) I asked her if she had ever heard of Interactive Fiction or Text Adventures.
She had not.
So, after much explaining, she was very intrigued and wanted more information so she could explore it more at home. She was especially fascinated with the concept of walking around a variety of settings and being able to “look” at stuff as she pleased. I gave her the websites for this forum and IFDB, but when I next saw her I got the impression that it wasn’t the greatest onramp for blind folks new to IF. I never got much chance to really explore that further because I moved away soon later. I’ve regretted how I handled that, and I’ve since considered how I might have handled that better.
All of that to say, is there a place, an online blind community, that has a place where IF is discussed? Or maybe a static landing page somewhere, for the blind by the blind perhaps, that serves as a handy onramp for what IF is, why it’s comparatively more accessible to the blind than most mainstream videogames, and maybe what games, interpreters, and screen reader setups might be best for new players to dip their toes into?
This stuff all exists more or less for sighted players, but I have no idea if something like this exists for the blind. It would be nice to have a simple URL to give to another blind person if I encountered this again. So much of the fiction and media that remains accessible to the blind is passive. You sit back and listen to it. Very little of it requires active participation and involvement. I feel like IF bucks that trend, and I would very much like to share that when I have the chance. I feel like I fumbled that for a blind friend when the opportunity presented itself, and I wouldn’t want to do the same disservice to someone else in the future.
Does a resource like that exist? And, if not, how would you suggest we sighted IF fans best respond to future IF intrigue shown by our blind friends and family and coworkers? As a blind IF fan, how would you respond to another blind friend or acquaintance expressing interest in IF and wanting to know more? Would that be an appropriate way for us sighted people to respond as well? Any suggestions in general on this topic?
Thanks for humoring me.
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Also, I had my money on over, mentally. Thanks for answering!
I am speculating now - it seems that, where a sighted person would taken in the world primarily through their vision and hearing, if you don’t have vision then hearing and other senses needs to do some heavy lifting. Especially as regards computers, screens, and all things audio-reader-ish.
Is it necessary, do you feel, to sometimes let your taxed brain take a break? This happens to everyone regardless of whether they are sighted or not, of course, but if your hearing is doing all that work all the time, do you find you routinely need to just pause all the sounds and the words?
I know plenty of people who just have the TV on as background noise while they do other stuff. Do you do that? Is the TV’s background noise truly just something you as well can tune in and tune out? Or, given how your brain compensates with your hearing, is it an unpleasant burden that, if you’re not listening to, you really have to turn off in order to remain aware of your surroundings?
Usually, when I start asking a series of questions, they become apparently dumber and dumber. If that’s the case here and the answers start to be “duh, just like sighted people, we’re not aliens”, just tell it to me straight because I can’t take hints. 
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Hey Pinkunz. That’s really sweet of you to mention IF, I frequently mentioned it to some of my other blind friends. I think the issue is not necessarily that the websites are in accessible, they’re honestly not that bad in terms of accessibility and they’re pretty good. I think it’s that there are so many games out there that they can feel a little overwhelming where to start. Personally when I first played IF I was playing on a device that had about nine games installed, so I had a small selection to choose from, then I downloaded Frotz and that had a few games but of course you can browse the IFD B, so I started looking at games that jumped out at me all that people were recommending, but I’ve got to be honest, there have been many times where I have not known which game to start playing First. I honestly think you handled it really well, the only thing is you maybe could’ve given her a few games to get her started.
I also think that IF seems to be a tricky style of games for people to learn to use, when I was learning how to play IFI used to play games on the Amazon Alexa wear one speaks a command, like go right, follow the eagle or take the wand and the game response, so IF felt pretty natural to me: it was only taking what I was doing originally but doing it in text rather than speaking. However, for many people they’ve never played this kind of game before, and when they confronted with a blinking cursor and a text box asking them to input anything, I imagine it must feel pretty overwhelming.
Genuinely though, it’s lovely that you wanted to mention to her about IF. Often times blind people do want to play video games, but a lot of of them are just simply not accessible. It’s really nice to have a type of game which we can engage with along with sighted people.
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As for all the questions regarding alt text, the best thing you can do is, if a caption contains the image description is just to put ID or description or access or something like that. This signals that this text is just describing an image. If the caption is adding to a joke in the image, that wouldn’t make sense on its own or Wood enhance the image, then you should probably add alt text.
For social media infographics, I think that if the text is in the caption already it should be okay, just make sure if there’s any relevant information in the image itself you either add alt text or put it in the caption.
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Hi Giger_Kitty. Sometimes I feel like I do need to take a break, I find that if I’m tired or stressed really noisy environments, like extremely busy restaurants at dinner rush can feel overwhelming. I don’t know if that is a blind thing though or just a human thing. I do, however, in fact listen to music, audiobooks and videos whilst doing tasks. I find that saving a video or podcast that I’ve wanted to watch or listen to for when I’m doing chores helps motivate me to do those chores LOL