Requesting help with Doom Parser

The aspect of it I’m thinking of never really made it into the cultural osmosis view, and that’s the free mouse cursor (as opposed to mouselook), along with the fairly complicated posture system. Of course first-person RPGs were doing the free mouse cursor thing too, but System Shock brought it all together to make a very physical, leaning around corners, crawling, fiddling with relatively complicated objects game. It just had more affordances than a Doomclone, and deployed them in a more adventurey way than RPGs. Although the choice to make it playable using only the mouse limited how freely arcade action could mix with clicking on stuff in the world.

What I think is interesting about putting a parser into an action game is that it makes it possible to interact with things that the engine isn’t really capable of representing. You’re adding another layer to the world model. In a text adventure, you move through space on a room level, and interact with objects on a finer level. In Doom there’s more nuance to the movement level, but the object interaction level isn’t really included. This would be a way to “zoom in” textually on things that couldn’t really be discerned or manipulated in Doom.

I think it’s fairly common in older RPGs to “zoom in” in this way, although they don’t model the level in detail. I’m also thinking of a moment in Cave Story where you find a small object in the grass (a ring or a key or something). What if, instead of just walking past it and being told you picked it up, you had to go find a stick and explicitly fish it out of a hole or something? I think you’d have access to some moods you can’t create just by printing, “You found a ring!”

Really the interactions could be fairly standard adventure stuff. The difference would be that rather than getting from interaction to interaction via NSEW they would be connected by arcade maneuvering. So you could ask, what kind of actions can you come up with that will motivate non-standard arcade maneuvers? In Doom your movements are governed almost entirely by tactical needs, with the occasional switch that must be reached. It can’t go much beyond that because it can only use level features the engine is capable of representing. A parser would be a way to abstract everything the engine doesn’t support well, tying it in to the engine by determining scope from position in the engine.

Just making the player type under pressure is fairly novel too.

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Thank you for sharing this. I will say that this game goes well beyond my aspirations here. I just want to experiment with genre blending; I’m not trying to write the next Indie darling.

Also, I don’t plan to edit most of the in-built Doom functions. Like movement and running are already handled very well by vanilla Doom and I see no reason to change that.

Quadrilateral Cowboy has given me some ideas though, so I sincerely appreciate that you shared it here.

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I only used the tilde symbol to more obviously mark the key it lives on; you wouldn’t need to hold shift and that key to activate it. Tab and shift (as well as ctrl, enter, and space) all have functions already tied to them, so I had to get creative.

Sort of? We’re trying to identify ways to compliment both genres, as opposed to choosing one over the other, if that makes any sense. Thus this topic.

We keep going back and forth on this. Leaving the most recent text feedback on the screen pulls this further from FPS as well as potentially loses relevance quickly. You examine something and then continue on into the next room, you might spend the next couple of minutes fighting enemies or whatever, all with an incongruous message about the the texture and size of the bronze skeleton key still plastered on your screen.

We thought maybe having the text feedback fade after a certain amount of time (adjustable in menu) but allow for it to be called up again with a button press would be best. With that said, nothing is written in stone.

We discussed having autocorrect as a toggle. You can flip it on or off. Some people hate autocorrect as it sometimes makes an incorrect correction. Others see it as a necessity.

You’re getting the idea. Use Shovel is effectively no different than equipping a shovel and tapping the action button. I still don’t know how object oriented we will end up going, but you got the general idea. Adding nuance is the goal.

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This game, yes?

I haven’t heard of it prior to this, but it explores some things I was contemplating, so a huge thank you for sharing it!

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My brain isn’t grokking this in text, so I suppose I’ll have to play them. Do you recommend a specific entry in the series over the rest?

I know that this general idea could be done better in other engines. For example, I saw an impressive Unity parser demo some time ago. The reason I want to explore a Doom mod specifically is several fold.

One, the engine is entirely open source. MIT license. So no Unity surprise. This matches up well with most IF engines.

Two, the engine is very mature, heavily documented, and has a huge support mechanism around it. This is important because I’m an idiot.

Three, it has an existing community interested in new Doom Mods being released. I thought this might interest some of the Doom community in parsers as well as maybe some of the IF community in extensive Doom modding. Obviously, there are plenty that are well versed in both, but there are many more who might appreciate the introduction.

So, could it be done in a slicker fashion using a more modern system? Sure. Does a Doom Mod seem like a more accessible route to me? Absolutely.

Bingo.

Agreed again. The thing is, we don’t want to abandon the tactical considerations, or separate them from the rest of the game. We’d love for this textual layer to inform and feedback into those tactical considerations, rather than exist as a separate game system divorced from the realities of FPS gameplay.

I think this is cool, but the problem is people only have two hands. Stopping to type effectively paralyzes your character, which makes it hard to fuse the two types of gameplay together. It’s why we thought fast mapping some parser commands would allow a better fusion of the two playstyles.

Although, I’d love some tailored scenes, like, say in a room with a bomb to defuse, or perhaps trying to hack into an elevator while a big meanie boss can be heard approaching in the distance, where the player can safely exist in parser mode (no immediate enemies) while retaining the time pressure of trying to solve the immediate issue before shit hits the fan, so to speak.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/systemshock/comments/vkh2bj/did_the_original_system_shock_1_not_have_a_mouse/

…in case this helps.

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Oh, and that link mentioned Ultima Underworld as being similar to System Shock for mouse control and that got me thinking about my favourite parser puzzle in Underworld… deciphering the lizard man language.

There was a prisoner that was locked up that understood the lizard tongue, however he was unable to speak at all. So he would act out any lizard men words you asked him about. Sometimes his charades were easy to understand and other times, it was a bit cryptic (all text descriptions, of course). Then you’d go back to the lizard men, speak more of their language and get further into a conversation before they’d get frustrated with your inability to understand them. Then you’d travel back and ask about more words that you heard. I think there were about 30 words in total. Anyway, I just found that aspect of the game so satisfying to decode.

So… you better make an ancient language to decode or I’ll be very disappointed. :wink:

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Interesting! Noted! :memo:

I like the interplay between the two groups making more of the language decipherable. It reminds me of the Al Bhed language being slowly revealed throughout Final Fantasy X. Although, it being a simple alphanumeric swap was underwhelming.

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Yeah, it just has to be played. I’m talking mostly about the first one. The other one leans more into typical shooter stuff and RPG elements. Great game but it doesn’t make my point.

That’s not what I mean. Adding a parser is a way of adding affordances to Doom, just like System Shock’s posture system and controls added affordances to an engine that’s Doom-like.

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Yeah, that’s it. I still have an original copy from way back.

Accoording to Wikipedia the original source was lost and it was recreated via reverse engineering. Also it was ported to the Amiga in 2013. What a weird wonderful world we live in.

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I apologize for misunderstanding. Thanks for setting me straight.

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If we’re recommending related games, I’m personally quite fond of The Typing of the Dead - Wikipedia. (Relevant mostly for ‘typing under pressure’, though the way the keyboards are worked into the plot is extremely charming.)

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No need to apologize, if I wanted to be understood I’d write clearly.

Yeah, that’s the only major example I could think of that was more game than typing tutor. https://zty.pe/ is a similar concept although obscure.

Plainly the only solution is to eliminate the arrow keys and make all inputs via command.

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Feel free to give it a try. Everything is open source after all. I’ll keep working this angle for a while longer before declaring it DOA. Maybe a lost cause, but I tend to gravitate to those anyway.

ETA: Text sucks at carrying tone, or at least my text does anyway. Abandoning the movement infrastructure of the FPS also abandons my point in attempting this in the first place. You may very well be right, but the end product wouldn’t match up with the aspiration.

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Thank you both for the leads. I appreciate it very much.

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Holy–

I finally watched the video full way through. Oh wow.

That mod is an absolute masterpiece and beautiful and super unsettling all at the same time. I agree with the creator’s opinions. On the note of who wrote it, I’d say it’s a family member or close relative who is impersonating one of the two lovers, to make it feel more close to the player and also sadder.

I’m in.

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It’s one of those videos that impress you more the longer you watch. I’m glad you found as much value in it as I did.

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Full disclosure: My meds have not kicked in, and I think someone brewed the coffee way too strong, but I am manic and I love Doom and have spent a decade modding it.

So forgive me if I’m obviously skim-reading but I am very hyper right now, the words won’t remain still on the screen, and I am losing my mind that Doom modding is being discussed on my favorite forum.

Allons-y!


I think you would be pleasantly surprised by how much puzzling I have seen in Doom projects before. I might fetch a list of specifics, but people have modded Doom wayyyyyyy outside of the original design doc before.

Although, fwiw, Portal has been recreated in Doom before, lol.

Agreed. As I’ve said privately before, this is where you can solve the problem of an FPS player wanting to do something more specific with an object than simply use or kill it.

Like this. Honestly, if any of y’all watch people play modded Arma 3, and watch them sacrifice part of their soul to navigate the nested radial menus to take certain actions, then having a parser seems like it would be really handy.

YESSSSS, THIS IS THE WAY.

Ahahahahaha, yeah, this would 100% be a can of worms you don’t want to open, lol. I feel like there are some modders who would do a line by bouncing their face off a table from a dive, collide with their computer, do a Looney Tunes smoke cloud, and come out with something that uses this method but it’s gonna eat you alive by the end, lol.

I tried to do something that had a similar approach (before ZScript was a thing; I used straight DECORATE code ahahaha) to have a customizable weapon—like in Crysis—and I had to make a brand-new weapon for every possible combination of settings, and I could not share code or refactor any of it. I had to get it right the first time, or else make the same modifications for every combination state. Completely unmanageable. ZScript makes this less excruciating, but it’s still not easy, and can be a major source of bugs.

Omg thank you so much. I was really struggling to remember this game’s name.

Did you mean: Jess’s all-time favorite Doom-based game?? :star_struck: Strife is so underappreciated because it came out so late, but it really proved that the Doom engine was perfectly capable of serving more modern gaming needs.

Also, something I want to bring up, because I’m not sure it got mentioned: The top-down nature of level creation in Doom is incredibly underrated. I recently heard John Carmack (the engine’s creator) explain it like… They thought it was going to look quaint in the future, but it turns out that the intuitive nature of Doom’s level architecture makes game design a lot more accessible, because once you get to true 3D, you often need a team to help you make levels, or else you burn yourself out. There’s something about the jump to true 3D that makes the simplest task so much more complex for a minimal increase in gain.

And I know a lot of you are probably thinking “Jess, have you seen how levels look in this game? They’re crusty!”

(I have probably forgotten more Doom than anybody here has seen, so yes, original graphics are crusty, and I love them, but let’s dig into that a bit) (also while I’m feeling brave right now, I don’t actually have any data on how much Doom any of y’all have played, so I might walk this back later, lol)

Behold, the Doom level architecture with modern graphics (Content Warning: This is a horror game)

So I feel like Strife pulled back the curtain on just how relevant this kind of architecture could still be, but everyone at the time was too focused on true 3D because it was a hot new thing.

Again, this. Sure, you could make it a Unity3D or Unreal game with this idea, but if you want easy access to game behavior, streamlined level design, and the fundamentals already implemented, GZDoom is literally right there.

I love this so much. Pretty sure it was reverse-engineered by one person as well. I cannot even imagine.

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Omg thank you so much. I was really struggling to remember this game’s name.

I always confuse Hypnospace Outlaw and Quadrilateral Cowboy.

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The Adventures of Maddog Williams in the Dungeons of Duridian is a parser-based action-adventure which allows the player to load a single command into the parser, use the arrow keys to walk to the spot where a real-time deadly obstacle awaits, and then judge the timing when to activate the command with the ENTER-key.

The Adventures of Maddog Williams in the Dungeons of Duridian
(Also: my review on-site here: -Review: The Adventures of Maddog Williams in the Dungeons of Duridian - (intfiction.org)

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