Leisure Suit Larry 6 (and others) trans content [Potentially NSFW links]

General Off-Topic Discussion
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…but watching the film is better, because a film is more than a list of its jokes. :innocent:

My ex used to “watch” horror films by checking their “corpse count” videos on youtube. I was always like, “huh?” (when I got her to properly watch “Saw”, she was quite hooked)

(BTW, as a kid I barely even registered the existence of the black lady in Tom and Jerry at all - all the fun was in the cat and the mouse. When I learned about it being a racist portrayal, my knee-jerk reaction was to naysay it and to say “PC gone mad” and all that. It took a bit of reflection to twist that around. Our knee-jerk reactions can be… suboptimal)

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There are movies that you can keep coming back to… those are usually called “favourites”. :wink:

Anyway, like I said before, I’m just trying to challenge people’s ideas. Comedy is about letting loose, laughing at yourself and others. We can laugh at inappropriate things. Leisure Suit Larry is a comedy. Airplane! is a comedy. Both have offensive material, not to reinforce stereotypes, but to poke fun at the absurdity of taking it too far.

My favourite comedy is actually Bubble Boy with Jake Gyllenhaal. There’s a scene where Jake’s character escapes from his home and his whipped father concocts a fake ransom note to get the authorities involved. His wife reads back the note to him aloud…

“Dear Mr. and Mrs. Livingston, we have kidnapped your son. Give $100,000 dollars or he dies. Signed, the Jews.”

(She looks upon him with disgust and shock.)

Are you kidding? ARE YOU KIDDING? Who in their right mind is going to believe this note Morton?!

THEY’RE THE JEWS. THEY’RE GOING TO WANT MORE THAN $100,000!

Again, that’s funny for obvious reasons and has very little to do with relishing the idea that Jewish people are money oriented or gleefully hating Jews. So when I read people’s opinions about hating comedic stereotype content, I wonder if they honestly got the actual joke.

@Giger_Kitty I remember playing Leisure Suit Larry games and it was always the world conspiring against Larry. In the scene you linked to, Larry clearly likes “the women” so this scene was about him, yet again, not getting the action he’s been so desperately after. If you found that the scene was about making fun of transpeople, I think you missed the joke. Not saying the joke was comedy gold, but it was a joke. Shablee’s character was not persecuted or dragged through the mud. Larry spitting is just his overreaction. I really don’t understand the objection to it. If I were to rewrite that scene, just before the “reveal moment”, I’d have Shablee’s voice go 4 octaves lower though (full on Barry White). :wink:

I never really liked The Mask, but you’ve redeemed yourself many, many times over with your other movie recommendations. The Princess Bride is one of my absolute favourites! I have a soft spot for The Master of Disguise so I’m not impervious to bad taste either. :wink:

Another fantastic comedy is The Bird Cage. Nathan Lane is absolutely adorable and ridiculous. Hank Azaria, as “the houseboy”, is perfectly over the top. On the surface, these caricatures are offensive because they lean on stereotypes. The stereotype invites a viewer’s attention, creates expectations (necessary for a joke and also the foundation of a stereotype), and then the humour can breathe.

I think that’s why I don’t find a lot of well crafted humour in more recent movies because they don’t lean on stereotypes or poke fun at relatable notions. The jokes land flat because there is no proper setup. You have to be a bit risky to deliver good humour. You also need to be relaxed to get a joke. Maybe a lot of people are too uptight these days.

Maybe a lot of script writers are too.

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I loved Airplane! although I haven’t seen it in forever. I always knew it as a parody of the Airport 7x disaster movies and only recently discovered it is even more so a direct parody of the movie Zero Hour!, even down to character names and the creepy cockpit scene with the kid. Really makes me want to rewatch it.

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I didn’t see the film.

I read the quote.

I laughed out loud. …not gonna pretend I didn’t. Immediate reaction.

What was I laughing at? That’s more interesting. :slight_smile: I was laughing at the timing (classic switch and bait), and the way it played with an ingrained preconception. Doesn’t mean I agree with the preconception, but I can totally see the character having that prejudice. So I was partly laughing at her, and partly laughing at the comedic device.

Indeed!

Hmmm, no, I didn’t. Lemme quote myself a few posts back:

So I may have expressed myself poorly. I don’t think it’s making fun of trans people. I think it’s making fun at Larry’s expense, but I couldn’t help but think, if I was in Shablee’s shoes, how would it feel to have a guy literally puke in front of me when he realised this thing about me? And I couldn’t help but think, is that really such a big issue to stop what was shaping out to be the best, most romantic night of Larry’s life, with a really sweet-looking woman?

Of course, none of these thoughts are what Al Lowe and the crew want us to think! They want us to laugh at the joke!

…so I’m a bit mixed about that. But it’s certainly not as clear-cut as “I think this makes fun of transpeople”.

(part of my thing with fiction is, I tend to empathise with the characters. That’s part of the whole point for me. I can tell you, it makes Hellgirl downright exhausting. Makes it a bit harder for me to enjoy comedy where you’re not supposed to do that)

I posted the scene here quite on purpose, because by speaking idly about it, we might demonize it and make it worse than it actually is. No one seems to be watching it, and indeed, no one should feel like they have to watch something they know is going to be unpleasant for them to watch. But the option should still be around to check what we’re talking about, I felt. It’s like… like the difference between watching Airplane! and going on to a list that says “One of the most famous jokes is “And don’t call me Shirley”, where the comedy lies in how surely and Shirley sound alike.” (no, I didn’t see the actual list Andrew linked to, this is not a quote from it)

:partying_face:

EDIT -

One Foot in the Grave scene , my favourite scene ever, hilarious, which I drop here without any context and which may not be funny at all without the context I’m not giving but I don’t care. :smiley: (totally safe to watch in every possible way unless you dislike seeing retired old british men sitting down).

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One Foot in the Grave is massively underrated!

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I enjoy your candid replies. :slight_smile: Many people here are more filtered. I honestly just want people to think for themselves. The world is many shades of grey (at least 50, I’m told), but we have to mostly talk in black and white terms… or intent is lost. It makes the contrasting points seem too blunt, but I hardly doubt people actually think entirely in black and white. I believe “anyone who says differently is selling something.” :wink:

I don’t feel deeply sympathetic to fictional characters, but if I did, I could imagine being absolutely disgusted by a lot of things. So I think that’s why I don’t take things too seriously. I can still get passionate about ideas, but I try to not take things personally. Otherwise, you’re inviting misery.

That was good… but as I near old age I found myself empathizing with the old man. Senility is a real condition that should be approached with care and respect… and then I realized that it’s still funny as hell!

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Maybe people are “too uptight these days” for a reason.

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I think a lot of it stems from the media we consume.

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OOooooooookaaaaaaaaaay, I deserved that for giving zero context!

Here’s a little bit of context: there’s zero senility involved. He was reaching for his phone, and the phone was totally meant to be there. The most unbelievable things happen to him, and only a few of them are consequences of his actions. This was merely one of them. :slight_smile:

I consider myself to be a Victor Meldrew, which is not flattering but is accurate.

Excellent point, and the reason that I try to talk about these things not being too hung up on one side or the other (I think the discuission so far has been quite excellent in tone, love being able to speak in a place like this). I expect that these jokes will be possible when, as mentioned, trans people are accepted as regular people in society; but until then, it’ll always be troublesome (to put it quite mildly, considering the reality Edmund states) to make fun of these things. Simply put, you don’t usually mock people who are currently hurting. Not unless you want to be punched in the face for good cause.

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I know. I was just making a joke. A bad one, but a joke nonetheless. :wink:

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Ahhh, so THAT’s what that whooshing noise over my head was!

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If humor must be based on stereotypes and boxed-in perceptions to land, that’s a you problem.

“It’s a joke, relax” is not a defense against continuing stereotypes. Jokes can be harmful as bullying, and often can maintain “other-ness” that causes certain groups to be thought of as lesser to reduce people’s guilt for not treating them like real people, leading to harassment and possibly endangering them.

Sensibilities have changed over the years. And while that doesn’t mean you can’t still enjoy classic media, you have to take jokes that “punch down” in context of the times. If someone becomes offended by them, it’s not productive to try to change their mind.

If I pull a prank that causes you to fall down the stairs and injure yourself, “It’s a joke, relax; it’s hilarious when Daffy Duck falls down the stairs!” shouldn’t absolve my guilt nor allay your anger at me injuring you. Even if you’re not causing physical harm, perpetrating harmful stereotypes and telling offended parties to just “get over it” is just as much of a problem.

Many movies, TV, and other media got away with terribly stereotypical and othering humor in the past because of ignorance. Now that we all have the ability to know better it really shouldn’t fly. You can enjoy it, but when someone is hurt or offended by something the absolute worst thing you can do is tell them they’re wrong and their feelings aren’t valid.

You don’t need to convince someone a joke that they didn’t appreciate is actually funny by shoving it back at them and saying “you don’t understand” because in reality, you’re not understanding what they’re saying and feeling. Bugs Bunny cartoons that include racist jokes and LSL jokes about trans people don’t need you to defend them. Instead, focus your care toward the actual person instead of the media, because human beings matter a lot more than your comedy sensibilities.

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So, the the thing about the ransom note joke is that it’s predicated on a shared understanding with the audience that the note in question is blatantly antisemitic, which is why it’s surprising (and therefore funny) when the character’s incredulous reaction actually turns out to be based on the note not being antisemitic enough.

In contrast, the LSL6 scene is 100% compatible with the authors genuinely believing that it would be gross to accidentally kiss a trans woman, and in fact the humour of the scene is easiest to explain if you assume that this is the intended reading. Having now watched it, there are many specific details I could point out that undermine the idea that the primary source of humour is supposed to be Larry’s “overreaction.” For instance, the record scratch is synced to the penis reveal, not to Larry’s retching reaction, and there are sub-jokes in the scene predicated on the idea that Shablee is specifically a man (i.e. it explains why she “knows what men want”). And a secondary implication is maybe that Larry is foolish/incompetent for not recognizing that she’s “a man” when it should have been obvious.

Collapsing it into just “they were making fun of Larry, not the trans woman” is missing the point. I can see the ransom note joke and be pretty confident that the writers do not actually believe that “the jews” go around randomly kidnapping people for money, but I cannot confidently say that the writers of the LSL6 scene don’t genuinely hold harmful beliefs about trans people.

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Victor Meldrew does not suffer from dementia. It’s not making fun of that.

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Thank you very much for sharing that, those things were not my reading and it’s invaluable to see these things through someone else’s eyes and experience. Very helpful and eye-opening.

The trouble about holding harmful beliefs is that one may not even realise they are harmful. Hence the ensuing defensiveness.

I strikingly remember watching, or reading about, an interview in which a cis person was, at the beginning, strongly against allowing trans people into the bathroom of the gender they identify at. During the interview, the person was spoken to logically, respectfully, and artfully made to consider certain points without ever making them defensive. By the end of the interview, they were open to the idea.

Not to say “people must be coddled into seeing the harm of their beliefs”. Just to say “beliefs may not be inherently harmful, but they can cause harm and make the person so defensive they double down on them, continuing a cycle”.

Hence the thorniness of the problem.

It also helps not to elect orange people into power, of course.

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I think it’s also worth asking the question: where are the positive portrayals to balance out the negative jokes? Are there any in the same work? What about in other contemporary works? If the answer is “no”, it’s a lot harder to brush off as just a joke.

The Birdcage is an interesting example to bring up because while it does contain outdated stereotypes, 1) the movie isn’t any nicer to the ultra-conservative politicians and 2) Armand and Albert are fully fleshed out and treated sympathetically. We are supposed to be on their side and root for them to succeed, but also to be happy for them when the house of cards comes crashing down and they end the movie proudly, happily, as themselves. There’s a lot of “haha, a man in a dress!” humor that hasn’t aged well, yes, but there’s a good heart under it all which is why I’m still happy to watch it and recommend it to people. But can you say the same for LSL 6?

On a side note, while I haven’t been able to watch the clip Shablee is almost certainly a reference to The Lady Chablis, a real trans woman famous for her role in the 1994 book Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil and subsequent movie adaptation (playing herself). The book is also of its time but treats her as just another member of the EXTREMELY colorful cast – which makes it sting a bit when you account for the fact that LSL 6 is then reduxing her to a punchline, even indirectly.

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LSL6 came out in 1993 while Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil was in 1994, so I’m not sure if the timing works out on that.

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Now, I don’t want to particularly defend LSL6, but there are a few things which might mitigate this.

There are references I don’t get, and Lady Chablis totally flew over my head, so I don’t know when the LSL series started doing this, but by LSL7 they had gone full on referring to real life people, the following being a Wikipedia copy-paste: “Drew Baringmore” (Drew Barrymore), “Dewmi Moore” (Demi Moore), “Victorian Principles” (Victoria Principal), “Jamie Lee Coitus” (Jamie Lee Curtis), “Nailmi” and “Wydoncha Jugg” (Naomi and Wynonna Judd) and “Annette Boning” (Annette Bening).

My point with that is, I don’t know whether Chablis was the first one, but does fall in the LSL tradition (is it a good tradition? Bad tradition? Regardless, she’s not singled out) of parodying real life people, in name only if nothing else.

Also, I also think that within LSL6 they treat Shablee as just another member of the cast, which is also very colourful in that it includes other stereotypes - and they all get treated the same say, essentially.

…being that Avery has pointed out very important things that I don’t think are quite replicated in the others. I’d have to go and check. So yes, Shablee does seem to raise more red flags that shouldn’t really be ignored. It’s just that, in the context of the game, she is not singled out for a punchline; she’s just one more stereotype. If anything, it’s LSL’s basic tastelessness showing through (and whether or not one enjoys the game depends on whether one can enjoy tasteless humour. It’s not a crime to enjoy tasteless humour. It’s not a crime to point it out and call it by its name either. Ultimately nothing is a crime, as long as we look at things and call them by their name).

EDIT - Ninja’d by Avery, whose pointed-out timeline is relevant.

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Heck of a coincidence, then! (I’m going to leave my post up and unedited though, for context.)

EDIT: The MS-DOS version was released in 1993 but a CD version with updated graphics was released a year later in 1994, so it’s possible the character was tweaked in the latter release to reference the recent hit book. I can’t find any information about differences between the two versions at the moment other than “updated graphics and voice acting” so it’s currently just a theory, but it would explain some things.

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They even LOOK similar, I don’t think it’s a coincidence even if the timeline looks iffy.

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EDIT - Turns out it IS a coincidence, as the ladies in LSL6 are named after wines!