The Mods have been doing a fantastic job with this forum. You have my thanks and respect. Please keep up the good work.
I agree with other voices that the Choice of Games Code of Conduct is an excellent model to work from, though it’s only a good idea if you plan to enforce it.
i didn’t say anyone was misogynistic, i just said automatic downvotes suck and can have a gendered component
emily explained the gender part v well
First, I think a code of conduct is a good thing, and I suspect a common-sense list of rules is a great start. I’m glad I clicked on this topic. It will help make the general discussion area a bit less of a wasteland.
This, I agree with in theory but not practice. If you are viewing people as categories, then yes, that is true.
Porpentine, the individual, has a lot of social power, especially in this localized part of the Internet. Porpentine knows a lot of people and has a wide social network who can back her up here or on other boards if someone takes a cheap shot. That doesn’t make cheap shots any less impremissible.
So I think this advice is inaccurate and I think it’s worth explaining why I think so…a personal experience comes to mind.
A gay man is speaking loudly on the bus that he doesn’t understand how heterosexuals can, well, enjoy heterosexual activities. Now, obviously, it’s way creepier if someone said the reverse, and they’d be off the bus right away. And deservedly.
Still, someone needed to have a word with him. (He got off the bus soon after, so I didn’t.) I wish I’d said something, but my own disadvantage is, I am really slow at talking.
I fought with myself why I was upset–and I think the thing is, you need to recognize when something makes people quickly uncomfortable even after thick skin kicked in. I know I don’t like people taking advantage of my thick skin, and while I’ll generally give people a few more passes based on their background, I can’t let it happen forever. And I feel that “you have thick skin” is often the sort of compliment that comes with baggage attached, with an implied order.
Some people are closer to learned helplessness than others because of who they are. I want to respect that and, well, not be a jerk. But we all deserve not to be pushed into learned helplessness. And David had some points that got lost in the shuffle.
I think it’s better phrased as “take a deep breath, and see if you’re still upset after a couple minutes. If it’s happened before, know who you can turn to.” I want the freedom to be able to say enough is enough if I need to. Even if I never have to use that freedom. And if I’m wrong, I’ll learn from that. I tend to learn more from mistakes than keeping quiet, and I think we all do.
One thing I’ve noticed is that there doesn’t seem to be a lot of people speaking up here, even though this is a topic that concerns the whole forum. Maybe a mod should set up some kind of alert to tell people we’re discussing making a code of conduct here?
Seconded. We have sticky topics, but I only noted this just because my topic about PM space got bumped here.
“One thing I’ve noticed is that there doesn’t seem to be a lot of people speaking up here, even though this is a topic that concerns the whole forum. Maybe a mod should set up some kind of alert to tell people we’re discussing making a code of conduct here?”
Actually most of this discussion seems to be more about what happebned on the other thread and why people are insensitive rather than establishment of a code. And I think some people don’t want to get involved because they are afraid to. I looked back at my post, which I thought was harmless enough, but then realized it could be misconstrued, and I could be “attacked” for being insensitive. After all, I think the moderators are doing a good job, and some of these posts suggest that they may not be as sensitive or aware of the issues as they could be, and so I must be insensitive, too.
Neil
I’d like to endorse everything dfabulich has said on this thread. One thing that I think would be helpful (as he said) would be for moderating to take place behind the scenes–having open flame wars about moderation issues doesn’t seem helpful. Unfortunately for that to happen would probably require more energy on the part of the moderators. It’d also require people to respect the moderators–in the other thread a moderator tried to intervene and she was basically flamed and then ignored.
I’m concerned that the view being expressed here–by Merk in particular–is that the problem with that thread was that some people got accused of misogyny, and that the apparent proposed remedy is to make people stop calling out what they see as sexism or any other kind of ism. Whereas a lot of people, especially women both cis and trans, explained why the posts at the beginning of the thread made them and others feel unwelcome, and I don’t see anything in Merk’s proposals that would address that effectively. The injunctions to be civil and respectful, err on the side of caution, etc., aren’t going to help stop someone who doesn’t think he’s being disrespectful or incautious, even though he is in fact making people in certain groups feel unwelcome–especially if the forum is going to officially discourage people from pointing out that what someone’s doing is making those people feel unwelcome.
In particular, I think the point about “subtle isms” is important–just because someone doesn’t intend to be perpetuating some ism, and doesn’t think they’re perpetuating some ism, doesn’t mean that they aren’t doing something that in fact is hurtful. Just because you don’t think you’re standing on someone’s foot doesn’t mean you’re not standing on someone’s foot. And the person who is in the best position to judge whether someone’s foot is being stood on is the person whose foot it belongs to. So when someone says, “Hey, get off my foot”–even if they’re not saying it very politely–the thing to do is to apologize nicely and get off their foot, not to start an argument about whether you’re standing on their foot, or ask them to explain very patiently why that’s their foot. Demanding that sort of explanation is an imposition.
A lot of people in that thread were explaining very eloquently why the initial posts made them feel unwelcome. (This post from Emily Short is just one example.) The people setting up the Code of Conduct should be listening to them, not saying “Well I didn’t see anything unwelcoming” or “The word you used to describe the way this made you feel unwelcome is one I disagree with, and I’m going to focus on that rather than on the way it made you feel unwelcome.” That frankly seems insulting. Again, who’s the authority here?
Nor does it seem constructive to ask people who are trying to say that they feel unwelcome exactly why they feel unwelcome, in a way that is going to be extremely careful and respectful of the people who have just made them feel unwelcome. Quoting Lynnea Glasser:
I love this forum and am very grateful for it, and there’s a lot here that would be very hard for me to replace, but it needs to be a more welcoming place. It’s not going to be a more welcoming place if our solution to this kind of flame war is to tell women (mostly) not to call out what they see as sexism, or to be extra extra careful to do so tactfully, or whatever. That just adds to the burden on people who are already being made to feel unwelcome, and why would they want to deal with that? As Dan said,
On preview: Andrew, I see your comment, and it will sometimes happen that the kind of view I just endorsed is going to lead to unfairness to people like me and you. But even with a moderation policy that bends over backwards not to spare our feelings, the unfairness is likely to wind up much more the other way. (I just went to the Choice of Games forum and the first thread I clicked on had a ridiculous blatant transphobic comment–the comment didn’t get any support but it still is the sort of thing that seems like it could help ruin your day if it was directed at you.) If we just let things bounce off our thick skin, here at least, the world and the forum will be a better place.
I would welcome a code of conduct. I think that moderation is a hard job and having a code of conduct makes it easier to do it better.
I know for a fact that when a community suggests that it is more interested in, and spends more energy on, defending itself against accusations of misogyny than it does on welcoming outsiders, that this drives women away. I don’t think it takes very much of this to make a community feel unsafe. I think that a code of conduct that is mealy-mouthed about this is not going to make it feel any safer.
matt w, I don’t think any of the mods think the initial posts in the IF is Dead thread were anything but unwelcoming. How to deal with them is a complex issue though.
The later accusations are a different matter. I agree with maga that we shouldn’t spend more energy defending against those claims that we do actually trying to make this place a safe welcoming misogyny-free place. But I’m also unhappy that the accusations were made in the way that they were made.
explicit codes of conduct are hella important because the natural inclination of things is to veer toward oppression, because we live in an oppressive society. its not so much a matter of guilt or innocence as understanding everyone is socialized to normalize oppression, including me, and staying aware of the erosion
I’ve realised that what I didn’t like about your comments in the other thread Porpentine was they they felt like drive-by comments to me. While I don’t think there should be some kind of minimum word count or mandated way to express that you are feeling oppressed, I also don’t think that short comments that lack enough context are constructive. Many people were confused by them. Does that make sense?
Everyone, should the code of conduct have anything about constructive ways to communicate?
It seems like there’s a culture clash between members of the community and the mods here. Maybe we should add some new mods? Personally I nominate maga, since he’s always been a stand-up gent, and I feel like he could help smooth over disagreements with the management.
if the comments of women feel drive by, it could have something to do with understanding how readily they’re going to be dismissed, or because they know speaking at length is sometimes taken as being “too invested” and “emotional” in the topic. some of us have the energy to speak at length on it, others are here to register our opinions and move on. i was hardly the only woman in that thread to do so.
saying automatic downvotes are bad (a clear infraction of the IFComp rules) shouldn’t be controversial. I dissented against the idea of automatic downvotes in the same amount of sentences, if not more, than others approved of the idea. there are plenty of men who made genuinely low effort, no context comments, who were not singled out.
At this point, there are supporters of a shorter Code of Conduct and supporters of a Choice-of-Games style Code. Nobody has indicated opposition to having a Code of Conduct, nor concerns with how restrictive a longer Code might be. In the interest of moving ahead, it seems a slightly adapted Choice-of-Games version is the winner. If somebody is willing to adapt that text to intfiction.org – basically by slightly revising whatever applies only to Choice-of-Games – that would be great. Otherwise, I will try getting it done this weekend.
In support of this, a review committee might be needed. I’ve had one volunteer. Others are welcome. One way to handle this is to have a group and private board (same concept as the IFComp authors board), but I think it takes moderator access to actually see pending “reports” on a post. So this part could take some thought. The answer might be to just make more moderators.
One thing that has become clear is that I no longer fit in here myself. My comments have already been taken in unintentional ways. And since it’s been made clear that defending against accusations only contributes to the problem, I don’t even feel comfortable now trying to explain myself.
To this end, I’d like to begin the process of transitioning the forum to somebody else willing to take it on. I can create a full DB backup (MySQL), but you will need a server running the latest version of phpBB. I will transfer the domain name in the process. This doesn’t have to happen immediately, but I guess it’ll need to happen at some point.
Howdy y’all,
Inspired by a mix of this discussion and some tangential concerns that others brought to my attention, I composed a very short and simple CoC for IFComp on Friday, adding it to the competition’s permanent rules (blog.ifcomp.org). Even though it’s only a couple of sentences long, I feel very good about it being there at all.
A proper CoC would not give marching orders to the mods, or compel them necessarily perform any more action moderation than they already do. It’s not for the mods, in a sense. It is a document, visible to all members of a community, that unambiguously states “Here is why we are here. Here is a general description of the sort of civil conduct we expect and appreciate, and here is a discrete list of activities we do not condone among those using these resources that we must all work together to maintain as a safe place for civil discussion.”
I sincerely believe that the adoption and conspicuous posting of a code of conduct would do a lot to repair some short-term damage that the forum’s reputation may have suffered in the eyes of the larger IF community, but more importantly will help all kinds of people who love IF feel safer about joining up and contributing. Growth and variety keep an open community alive. I would be pleased and proud if the IF forums adopted any sort of code of conduct.
I think it is kind of problematic to demand, of people who feel unwelcome or threatened, that they stick around and explain themselves at length. I agree that this can make things really difficult (and is why people who are willing and able to provide context, as Emily did, are valuable).
Healy, I appreciate the sentiment, but I feel that I’m already wearing as many community hats as I feel comfortable with.
Maga, I don’t disagree. I don’t know what to expect.
I think you’d make a great mod too. If anyone else has any other ideas of people who could be good to put on a team for reviewing reported posts, do let us mods know. We may need more mods, especially if any decide to step down.
Merk, I hope I haven’t made you feel unwelcome here; that was never my intent. I apologize for my part in bringing you to this decision.
(Maybe take a few days off before doing anything drastic?)
I’ve been watching this thread and the other one (yes, that one) from afar for the past couple of days. I’ve seen a lot of people (many of whom I really like and count as friends) struggling with trying to understand why and how things blew up. There’s a bigger contextual framework at play here, which finally was brought to light and after that things were a touch better. A touch. Sometimes, even when we’re pretty sure we understand why what we did had the effect that it did, trying to explain your good intentions just makes it worse, even though you really did have good intentions and just didn’t know the larger picture. Sometimes it’s better to move on. And yet that thread kept going. And the argument has kept going. And it’s an old argument. One I addressed in the rules of IntroComp years ago, because it is so not a new argument.
But enough of rehashing the IF is Dead thread.
I made a statement off-forum today that some of you may have read. I said, “I don’t think I’ve ever seen intfic or its predecessor as a safe space for rational conversation.” First of all, it was a bit over-harsh and I misspoke slightly. I meant to say, “I’ve rarely ever seen intfic or its predecessor as a safe space for rational conversation.” I wanted to clarify this, because it’s a vague enough statement that some might think I was painting with a broader (or thinner) brush than was intended.
Simply put: this place often devolves into unnecessary drama. Fights over interpreters or platforms or OS-specific games or design approaches or why you shouldn’t homebuild or why people who create things for free are somehow obligated to do things as if you’re their paying customer, or, or, or… it (just feels as if it) is rarely about the love of games. The craft, the playing, the appreciation, the thoughtful critique for the sake of improving our work. How can I know that when I’m so rarely here? Because I hear my friends complain about it. I hear them getting frustrated. Sometimes I see them really stressed out about interactions here. Sometimes bordering on physical queasiness. I simply don’t have the bandwidth to self-administer that sort of stress.
That’s the reason I dip into the place once or twice a year, when I need to, to let you all know that IntroComp is happening. And why I’m not around the rest of the time.
If a CoC would make the place better, I might be more inclined to visit. That might be the case for a lot of people. The Choice of Games forum rules of engagement appear quite solid. Thanks, Dan, for weighing in and sharing those as a model so that this group need not invent the wheel.
Merk, I think it would be a shame for you to fully step away. I get you not wanting to be a moderator/admin; I do that in other realms and it’s difficult and not always fun and somewhat draining (though it can be rewarding as well). It does require having a really solid finger on the pulse of what’s happening. But this place is a lot better than its predecessor, and if you walk away it might fall apart. Please consider at least continuing to be the tech brain and solicit the assistance of others for moderating. Hopefully a CoC will allow for the community to do a better job of self-moderation, once it has a clear set of rules — though I think having some thoughtful, inclusive moderators will still be necessary.
Just the situation in general.
One thing I can promise is that I’m not going to do anything drastic. I’ll host the forum as long as it takes to find a willing home (hosting is pretty much all I’ve done over the past few years anyway). I’m just dismayed that what I felt was a legitimate concern – false accusations are also a problem – was construed as being dismissive of complaints. I’m dismayed that defending against it is construed as ignoring the underlying problem. I’m dismayed that a forum built on the principle of speaking freely with minimal moderation now needs extensive rules. I’m dismayed that even saying that much feels like I’m digging myself a bigger hole.
But that’s me as the guy who sometimes posts here. Me as host/admin will do what it takes to bring things in line with what the community wants and needs. But ultimately, because of this discrepancy, I know I’m not the right person to keep doing this. This isn’t an exit from the community for me (well, I guess that depends on how these things work out in practice), but rather a willingness to hand things off to a host/admin better suited to the role.