A Post-Mortem of The Dead Account, Weird Grief, & My Game Development Career (For Now)

@hawkbyte
Yes, it is a difficult problem. One to which I have not seen a solution to, currently


@EpicIFer
I will respond to you on YouTube as well, but here is what I have to say:
If you read the post I linked in the description of my video, you will have seen that I have tried to create to ~myself~, and doing that has brought me quite a bit of sadness. Furthermore, you will have seen my discussion of wanting to be recognized for making "good IF’, something I also touched on in the video. So your words ring quite hollow, and makes me wonder if you truly paid attention to the words I am trying to get across.


@Lava_Ghost
Thank you. It is frustrating, and it is a failing. Unfortunately, I have not found a place for experimental IFs to really thrive. It would be nice if there was an event for them.


@severedhand
I received and responded to your PM. I don’t understand the question you’re asking here, though. Can you please elaborate?

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I don’t know about this, but maybe @Adam_S knows. Would IF Art Show be an acceptable venue for “fringe” IF works? There should be at least one available, right?

No question, your honour! I was just trying to say, when someone sees a topic like this that’s potentially confronting (the video’s content) then they see no replies, they may wonder, ‘Hm, has anybody said anything yet?’ That’s how I felt when I saw the topic originally, and that there were no replies. So I was just saying, for anyone who came later and felt the same way I did previously, that someone (me) had sent a PM. Whew, what a tedious bit of clarification I’ve effected here.

-Wade

As a side note, I do honor and respect your wishes to stop offering writing. Honestly, I have had the same feelings, many times. I have ‘sat out’ this recent Comp as well as Spring Thing. True it’s exhausting, and it’s heartbreaking, no one seems to care (although there are those who do). I keep writing because I love doing it and creating games. There are times that you just get burnt out. I can relate to that. I am sorry that my words ‘ring hollow’ and they must sound patronizing, but I guess that’s just my way to say that we hope you come back.

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8 posts were split to a new topic: IF Art Show / Festival discussion

Bez, I’m sorry I’ve been one of the people who doesn’t engage much, but for what it’s worth, I’ve really enjoyed your games. And the fringe always feeds into the mainstream eventually, so even people who don’t think they like “weird” games owe a debt to creators like you.

I’d love to see an IF Fringe. I might even consider hosting one - but I’m pretty bad at keeping commitments (this year I even found out I have a medical excuse for that) so I’d frankly rather someone else did. But if no one else does…

ParserComp spurred me into making a game in a form that I probably wouldn’t have made again. An IF Fringe would spur me, and others, I hope, into making something new and weird, while also providing a natural space for people whose whole shtick is new and weird. It wouldn’t get as much traffic as IFComp, but we know there are creators who aren’t even entering IFComp because they don’t feel their weird games are welcome there, so who knows.

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Hey Bez. All I can say is I feel your pain. That was me last year. I raged quit. I didn’t do it publicly, but I was done. I lurked on the forums over the past year, but I was a little bitter about it. Then this year, when the comp started, I saw the warm and welcoming atmosphere, and it made me want to enter again. I don’t know. Everyone was so happy. Then an idea hit me out of the blue. Now I’m thinking about entering 2022.

Give it time. I needed to walk away after feeling burnt. Maybe you’ll come around as I did, or not. It was hard for me to walk away because I really enjoy the programming plus writing. It’s an interesting combination that you find nowhere else.

In the end, do what you enjoy. If you’re not enjoying this, quit. I had to. But if you still enjoy this, then do it at least for yourself. A creator has to create. And who knows, you might write “that” game one day.

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And rightly so, since he deserves it. I don’t think we will enter our games expecting to rank highly. I certainly didn’t. I do expect to get good experimental feedback with none of the abuses. Things like:

  1. “Your life sucks.” Hey, it’s fiction.
  2. “Your game sucks, and it cannot be improved.” My game is perfect, just not to your taste.
  3. “I don’t have to tell you what the right thing is.” You don’t know either, huh? Then shut up and stop abusing me.

I certainly can accept if my game is incomplete, or otherwise faulty. I cannot accept poisonous community that harass and abuse people, just because they submit fringe, unpopular games.

I don’t see a problem with “Experimental” tag in ParserComp, that will be evaluated separately. But somehow these Fringe games aren’t experimental, and I’m not sure I want to tag it “Fringe” or “Niche” or “Subculture” because those are loaded words. But this is why I put this thing out there for discussions. I’d rather have “Art” tag on it, even if it conjures the image of toilet on wall in an art museum.

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@DrkStarr @Norbez

I’ve had this often over the course of my 40+ years on the planet. Not necessarily from reception to games I’ve released (as I haven’t released any :sweat_smile:) but more in the feeling of pushing an elephant up the stairs when trying to get a passion project moving; and just getting no interest from Joe Public. Occasionally it strikes a chord and gets a lot of interest (like ParserComp) and sometimes its an incredibly isolating, lonely, depressing journey where it feels like I am literally the only person on the planet who is interested. You can reach out to 100s of content creators, bloggers, journalists, and get not so much as a reply telling you “stop contacting me you looney, before I get a restraining order”. Then another person ties their shoelace and content creators fall over themselves to write about it!

It can feel like pouring you heart and soul into something, only for it to generate nothing but apathy.

In short, you’re not on your own!

Adam

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Hi Bez. I watched your video, and the thing I noticed is that your sense of self-worth seems to be very tightly bound up with how your work is received. As artists, our work tends to become a defining detail of who we are, so when our art is not perhaps as popular as we hoped, our very identity feels threatened. I know this from personal experience.

Please don’t fall into that trap. We are more than our work, we are human beings. Self-love should not come with qualifications.

In a way, it’s a pity that the IF world is so focused on the competition. It would be lovely if a game released outside the comp got all the reviews and discussion that comp games get, but without the competitive aspect. IF is incredibly varied, and sometimes the comp can feel like comparing apples and oranges.

I enjoyed playing your games. Since watching your video I also went back and re-read the reviews, and there’s a good deal of praise in them. They’ve generated a lot of discussion too, as the more personal, experimental games tend to. I’ve never yet written a game that merited its own discussion thread.

I think a revival of the IF Art Show is a great idea. We already have Spring Thing, which is meant to be a “festival” rather than a competition, where more experimental works are encouraged - it’s why Grim Curio and I chose it for Excalibur. It doesn’t get quite the attention IFComp does, but the expectations are slightly different. But a dedicated, non-competitive “art” show would be great too.

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I didn’t play your game, but I did watch your Youtube video. Hope you don’t mind if I share my reactions :slightly_smiling_face:.

You evidently have the instincts of a writer. You like to explore ideas. When you become interested in characters, they suggest their development to you.

But you pick a tough crowd when you write a piece for an IF competition. I learned that myself when I submitted a work-in-progress to the Spring Thing Festival Back Garden. I was not prepared for the rigorous and forensic dissection of what at that point was a temporary implementation of some immature ideas.

For clarity: I have no criticism of any judge who takes the time to read/play a piece and then invests additional time in a structured critique. The person who supplied feedback on my bit of work did me a huge favour in communicating his perspective. But I did feel bruised at the time.

Those of us who choose to make experimental work in non-traditional media can’t really count on widespread recognition, approval or fame. Maybe retrospectively in a couple of decade’s time. But instant validation is not a realistic expectation.

Why not cast your nets elsewhere for a while? Why not make more Youtube videos? I would watch them, and I’m sure so would many others. Please don’t stop considering yourself a writer, though.

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That’s a really good idea actually. If it helps then I’ve found that creating a YouTube video and then sharing into gaming Reddit subreddits generates a fair bit of interest and discussion. I’m sure must be an experimental game subreddit.

Adam :slightly_smiling_face::v:

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I would totally subscribe to a Bez podcast or Let’s Plays on YouTube!

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Do you find that you feel angry and frustrated, but feel unable to express that or share it because in doing so you fear the response will be that you are accused of “feeling entitled”?

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Hi Norbez. I just wanted to express goodwill.

I was pretty involved with a different art scene for a number of years, and, despite some minor successes, I never really felt like I was getting anywhere. Like you, I wanted to feel seen. After all, I had started making art as a way to connect with people–to explain things I didn’t know how to explain any other way.

Lots of well-meaning people told me that I had to do it for myself, but there’s a point where doing it for myself became doing it to myself.

I don’t have any wisdom or life advice. I just wanted to acknowledge your experience and say I hope things get better. Wanting to be seen isn’t unreasonable; it’s a basic human need.

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Apparently, my original response was too old-fashioned, so let me say it another way.

  1. I came in 70th out of 71st. Someone has to win, and someone has to lose. You can use your ranking as motivation or as discouragement, but it’s your choice.
  2. You do realize that fewer than 100 people on the entire planet saw your game, right? That’s true for everyone’s games, even the first-place winner. IFComp isn’t the Oscars.
  3. Take a breather and get outside of your head for a minute. You’ve been focusing on how others interpreted YOUR game, but how did you interact with other people’s games? Did you play them all, even the “weird” or “fringe” ones? Did you write supportive comments to those “less popular” authors? Etc etc. Got to give what you want to get.
  4. It’s good that you’re passionate - without it, you can’t live as a writer. But step outside and forget the world of words for a bit because life is big, and stories are only a part of it.

Other than that, hang in there.

If this gets censored, then hell, I don’t know what to do.

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Seems firm but fair to me.

I think it’s the “connection” part where it all gets rocky. It’s all fine to take a cool headed view of something and say “do it just for yourself, if others show positive interest then that’s a bonus” but if the whole purpose/drive of the art (or the thing you do) is to connect and make connections and feel like you’re not some isolated nutter who likes something that literally no one else on the planet does then doing it for yourself doesn’t achieve that.

I don’t disagree with the sentiments expressed here, I’m just empathising with @Norbez because I can draw some parallels in pursuing something that returns you net-zero interest from the world.

Adam

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That isn’t generally true. More people play than judge, and games that place highly often get wider attention and press coverage.

(In any case, it’s unclear what gives you the impression that the OP thinks their games have a huge audience)

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Gonna take some time to properly respond to this thread & what everyone has said. Sorry for the delay. I will also respond to DMs asap.


@robinjohnson
Thank you for sharing your story and enjoying my games. I am also interested in an IF Fringe type of thing, and like the idea of there being ribbon instead of rankings.


@DrkStarr
Thanks, I’m happy you empathize. Though I’m unsure what you mean by “that” game.


@AmandaB
True. . .


@ramstrong
I understand what you’re saying. It sounds like you’ve had some bad criticism in the past for your work. Is that correct?


@Adam_S
Yeah, it can be an exhausting process. Thank you for sharing and letting us know we’re not alone.
As for your question. . .

I had to think about this for a bit. I suppose that is part of it, putting things out into the world & getting not enough back; knowing that I am not owed a positive reception/good reaction/whatever, but wanting it nevertheless. And hoping after six years of building myself up I this space, I would be getting more back, but having most IF Comps feel & play out similarly year after year, like it’s my first one all over again.
It’s frustrating, feeling like you have all the building blocks for success, but they aren’t going upward. Knowing rationally that I am not owed anything by the world, but wanting it, and not wanting to come across like a child yelling, “It’s not fair!”
(The other part of it is that I’ve built up far more success as a creator in a different space in less than two years, way more than I’ve ever gotten in six years here. Ten times the views and growth statistically. But that is another subject & story.)
I also agree with your discussion of “connection”.
Thank you.


@J_J_Guest
That’s a complicated question. Another one I had to ponder for a bit.
I suppose that used to be the case, especially with projects that were more personal. Nowadays, I try not to fall into that trap, but I can slip from time to time. I understand that struggle.
As for your other points, I agree it is a pity. Thanks for enjoying my games and sharing your experiences.


@tundish
I appreciate you complimenting me as a writer. I find your conclusion about being validated depressing, but fair. I will keep considering myself a writer. As for doing YouTube, please see my response to Adam & Hanon below.


@Adam_S & @HanonO
I tried the YouTube thing for around half a year, first as an otome/VN/Japanese media reviewer ( https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdCst6eP2UmnEN5v0MUQUkA ) & at the same time, with Magic: The Gathering videos ( https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCi62c2FIjfhcoNYszU0vBBQ ). I stopped the MTG videos because the community was far too toxic for me, and as I said in my written post, I’m pausing the otome reviews as well. I will assess them at some point and see if there’s something worth returning to in the future.


@kamineko
Thank you for your goodwill. The struggle to be seen is real. I appreciate it.


@Sam_Ursu
“Old fashioned” you say? That’s a very obtuse way of saying, “so offensive the mods had to hide your post.”
But let’s focus in your points. I will respond to them one by one.

  1. Yes, it is my choice. Therefore, I have chosen to step away, and evaluate where I want to go from here.
  2. I don’t understand your point here. It comes across like you’re telling me to, “Chill out,” or something, which isn’t really the best way to respond to another person’s feelings. Please tell me if I am incorrect. And like Robin said, I don’t know who/what gave you the impression that I think my games have a big audience.
  3. I’m unsure of your point, but I will tell you that I have been “giving what I want to get” via Game Curator for almost a year, spotlighting smaller projects on that platform. I even reviewed IF Comp games last year, funny enough. Does that satisfy the point you’re trying to make? Because like I said, I’m not 100% sure of what you’re trying to say.
  4. Again, I am confused. My best interpretation is to separate myself from my stories for a bit, which is exactly what I’m already doing, so. . Can you please explain what you’re trying to tell me?

Conclusion:
Thank you all for your responses. The overall impression I’ve gotten from you is that we need another IF Art Show and/or a Fringe IF space, which both sounds nice. And I appreciate you all letting me know I’m not alone here.

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I pride myself on being able to read the room and work out what’s going to happen next.

I confidently predict that this is the end of this thread and there will be no more entries, replies or counter arguments. All’s well that ends well.

100%. For sure. You can bet your mortgage on it. :slightly_smiling_face::v: Move along, nothing else to see here…

Adam

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