Thanks for the response, Chuck! I’m always anxious about saying this sort of thing – sometimes I feel like I’m saying, “You know what would improve your story? SPACE NINJA KITTENS. Rewrite it to be mostly about that.” Which is generally not helpful, even if true.
Good morning Matt.
Well, I made three important changes based on your insights.
Change 1
Increased the time for night by five turns.
Change 2
Changed the early daytime conversation with Maize to say:
[spoiler]Maize continues, “I’m hoping your grandpa gets back in time to light it. Messing around with flammable materials is not something for the young and inexperienced to do. When nighttime arrives and it’s still dark, then come to me and I’ll give you some things to do it on your own.”
“I can try Maize,” Phoebe replies seriously.[/spoiler]
Change 3 A better start at night
When night arrives Maize gives Phoebe the empty oil can and matches. Matches were removed from desk.
I think this strengthens the story considerably, and I have you to thank for that. I learned a few important things as well.
Chuck
Glad I was able to help! I’ll PM you with my ideas for how to fit in the space ninja kittens.
(Not really.)
I do have another suggestion, though:
[spoiler]In change 2, it’d definitely good to have Maize point out that you’ll need to come back, but I don’t think she should say “when” – I’d say something more like “If he’s not back by nightfall, we can light the lamp.” This way it does sound like she’s saying “You will in fact need to do this, but not yet – wait till the timer starts counting down.”
In fact, what might be even better is to have her gradually get more and more unsure about Jake coming back over some conversations – like in the first conversation, you can ask her about the lighthouse and she’ll say “don’t play with matches and kerosene, Jake will do it,” and then you can do it again and she says “I hope he comes back,” and in the third she says “come back to me if he’s not back by nightfall,” and in the fourth she tells you about the space ninja kittens. Sorry, lost control for a moment there. Anyway, you see what I mean, but I think this would be a lot more work – one thing you’d have to do is make sure that the later conversation options unlock themselves as you get closer to nightfall even if the player hadn’t asked about the lighthouse yet, to make sure the player does get the clue about coming back at nightfall.[/spoiler]
Looking forward to more of this!
Greetings once again. Here’s the change I made:
…
Maize continues, “I’m hoping your grandpa gets back in time to light it. Messing around with flammable materials is not something for the young and inexperienced to do. When nighttime arrives and if Jake is still missing, then come to me and I’ll give you some items for you to use in the lighthouse on your own. Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that.”
Your second suggestion would require more tinkering than I want to do at this point. I agree that increasing anxiety about Jake’s absence would be good.
With the exception of the conversational bit that opens up the path to the Swan Angel, a reader could go through most of the story without talking to Maize. A visit to her would then reveal quite a long list of conversational options that could be addressed in any order. That’s the kind of design I chose, for good or bad.
I really wanted to focus on developing a rich conversational system this time around. I think what I have learned from you and from becoming more knowledgeable about the design program will enable me to create a better story the next time. Some of the new goals:
-
Create more efficient links with fewer clicks to get around. I don’t dare to go back now and retrofit what I did. Much to dangerous for stability.
-
A shorter story. Statistics at the chooseyourstory.com says that the number of pages in “Phoebe” is at the very high end of all stories there. That will require even more careful planning before starting.
-
A winter setting. The previous story I published used SUDS (see the thread here) called Snow Night.
-
A few more characters that appear in different locations.
I love what the designers did for Inform7. I spent many hours learning (or trying to learn) how to program in I7. I have concluded, though, that the general public doesn’t have the patience to struggle with a blinking cursor and the puzzle nature of most formal IF. I am going to look at other options before beginning again.
For a CYOA type of story, I don’t think there is a better system than what chooseyourstory.com provides. I think I demonstrated with “Phoebe” that a CYOA type story can have some fluidity. But I don’t like being so dependent on their website. There is no simple way other than cutting and pasting to get a text file of the entire story. I’m doing that now with nearly 250 pages. There’s no way to conduct a “search and replace” type editing. So if a writer has confused someone’s name somewhere in the story, he or she has to hunt every single page separately to find the error.
Despite these disadvantages, I am amazed at the tool they provide. Take a look at the “Small story” linked from my website. I read it to my 4-year-old granddaughter who made the choices. Since that experience was so successful (months afterward she still talks about Lilly) I may go back to writing at least one more Lilly story for her (let me see, how can I introduce ninja kittens in those stories).
Again, you really helped with your comments. I look forward to our continued conversation.
Chuck
The Adventures of Phoebe McGee
ksu.edu/wwparent/story/Phoebe/
Hi Chuck,
I spent a bit of time playing Phoebe the other night. It took me a while to get into the story (the exploration at the very start seemed a bit laboured), but there’s some great writing there, and I’m very interested in your motivations and research.
Matt’s obviously given you some incredibly good advice, but I would also suggest that you consider dropping a thread in the beta-testing forum on this site and get some systematic testing done. When I played through I noticed a number of errors (what seemed to be a missing choice when fighting bonecrusher; “runaway” (someone who has absconded) instead of “run away” (an action) as one of the choices; a few spelling mistakes… apologies for not writing them down as I was playing).
I’m also intrigued by the level of menace (female jeapourdy scenarios and “horror” settings) within the story, especially given the target age group. What have the responses from children to this story been like? Have you found the length to be prohibitive? Have boys responded well to playing out the character of a young girl? Have readers been able to save the bird at the start?
Well done on what you’ve written and achieved. You’ve not only created a great story, but something meaningful.
By the way, should you be interested in CYOA style stories that have substance, I recommend you check out a new Australian series of books called Ranger in Danger (rangerindanger.com). The backstory to how the series came about is inspiring.
All the best!
Thanks Neo.
Your comments are valuable and deserve my follow-up. I will correct the errors you mentioned. After I do that, I will start a thread in the beta testing forum.
As far as menace… this concerns me as well. I would suggest that “Phoebe” is suitable only for fifth to sixth graders and older. On my website I advise parents and their children going through it together. Yes, there are some scary images. I have not promoted the site to elementary school teachers or parents, other than creating the website to make the story available.
For an interesting take on these kind of images, see Jane Yolen’s book Tough Magic. I think the images are no scarier than in typical fairy tales, though those can be scary for a young child. So the jury is out on the menace level. I think I need to return to my website to make this clear. Phoebe’s courage has to occur in the face of significant danger. My choice of a female protagonist was deliberate. Having two grandchildren who are girls may have something to do with that. Both are too young to view the story, though I was impressed with the four year old’s response to the “small story” on the website.
Visit my website at raisingcourageouskids.com for commentary about fear, courage, and heroism.
Your reaction …
… really lifted my spirit. Great story… something meaningful… well done. So nice to hear that you thought what I did is worthwhile.
I have written nonfiction books, but “Phoebe” is really my first effort with fiction. Also my first try (other than the short story for very young children) with CYOA. Thanks for the tip on Ranger in Danger. I’ll check it out right away.
All the best to you as well. Thanks for taking the time to read the story and post your comments.
Neo,
I changed runaway to run away. Misspelling and typos are difficult to track down because I would have to examine each of the more than 250 pages to find them. It would help if you note the page title if you go through the story again. I am now cutting and pasting all the pages into a Word document that will make it easier to find these things.
I could not duplicate the error you found when fighting Bonesnapper. All the links seem to be functioning as planned.
Sadly, the Ranger in Danger books are not available at Amazon. I looked at ordering them on the website, but there was no comment about shipping to US.
Thanks for your comments and suggestions.
Chuck
Hey Chuck,
Hmmm, it seems the Ranger in Danger books are only available in Australia at this point. Some information about the background is available from their web site, but not much. I’ll see what I can do about getting you some more information. I just did a feature on the books for a kids magazine, including some short interviews with the creators.
With regards to Phoebe, as I said before, sorry for not writing down the errors at the time. I wasn’t playing with a beta testing hat on, just more out of interest. I’ll do something more comprehensive for you later in the week.
Also, if it’s really important that your stories are portable, you might consider Inform 7 again, using Ed Griffiths’ excellent extension, Adventure Book. Or, if you can wait a week or two, I should have my own extension completed, which builds on the Adventure Book extension and adds a few neat features (including accessibility options for blind/VI readers). If you have Lilly of the Forest available as a text file now, I’d happily convert it for you as an example file so you can see how it might work.
UPDATE:
Don’t worry about the Lilly text file…
I re-created the game myself using what I could copy-and-paste from the web version, making an assumption or two about the variables you’d used to flag certain responses.
Here (www.ifgamebooks.com/files/) is Lilly of the Forest as a .z8 code IF game (which you can play on pretty much any IF interpreter) and the source code as a .txt file, so you can see how easy it would be to write. (In fact, the whole purpose of the extension is to allow someone who doesn’t know Inform 7 to write an IF-driven CYOA/gamebook.)
If you have an iPhone (or similar), I strongly suggest you download the app Frotz, which would then give you a fully mobile version of Lilly of the Forest without the need to access the internet. I should also mention that I’ve turned on the inventory system so that you can see the Kite appear in there. Simply type INV or I at any time to bring up the inventory.
A story such as Lilly is very basic and would easily be recreated using Ed Griffiths’ Adventure Book extension. I’ve used mine–IF Gamebook–which, when finished, should open up a slew of features, including three parser options, a psychological inventory and more. It should even be able to recreate Phoebe (though the timed sequences might be interesting).
I should mention that I haven’t fully tested this version of Lilly of the Forest, just the main flags and paths. It would be a cinch to make changes and updates, though, so if I have made errors or incorrect link assumptions, let me know.
This thread discusses the (simple) steps needed to get Adventure Book working with the newest version of Inform:
https://intfiction.org/t/adventure-book-extension-wont-compile-in-6g60/1663/1
–Erik
Good morning all.
Neo, thank for what you have done. I’ll get a cuppa here in a moment and take a look. Thanks! I am fond of that simple story because of how my four-year-old gd Samantha responded. She sailed through it making choices along the way, all involving the more risky options. I need to do another more challenging for her. I think this is how IF starts at an early age. I would certainly encourage her later to create something at chooseyourstory.com and then “graduate” to I7 when she’s ready.
Erik, looking forward to trying out the Adventure Book extension again. I tried using it about six months ago and couldn’t get it to work. Time to dust off I7 and try again.
If I decide to go back to I7 I shudder at the thought of trying to port the the current “Adventures of Phoebe McGee.” The support at chooseyourstory.com has been excellent, but not having a file of the story has always bugged me. The support I have received here is wonderful since this forum more active.
Greetings all. See my post about Adventure Book at:
https://intfiction.org/t/adventure-book-extension-wont-compile-in-6g60/1663/1.
I may have to go to an older version of I7.
I got Zoom to run the Lilly file.
Sorry. My fault. I should have been clearer.
The Adventure Book extension is currently broken. One of the recent updates for Inform 7 added some syntax which the extension uses to define how to turn on and off certain flags. Ed Griffiths (the author of the extension) is aware and in the process of fixing it.
Lilly of the Forest is written using my extension (not yet released). For all purposes it looks like Adventure Book in your example purely because I kept the Adventure Book functionality as part of its feature set. I did, however, mess around with some of the terminology. In my version ‘activate’ and ‘deactivate’ are used in the place of ‘give’ and ‘remove’, and the inventory now utilises a flag-based set-up rather than IF’s usual player inventory. (This allows me to create a second ‘psychological’ inventory and dictate whether items can have a general use or a specific one).
Where does that currently leave you?
Well, I imagine Ed will probably have the new version of Adventure Book up on the Extension repository soon.
Some time after that mine will be done.
Until then, yes, you can use an older version of Inform 7, but be aware that at some point you will have to rewrite the source code again if you want to use newer versions of Inform 7.
Hope that helps.
Greetings all.
I have Adventure Book running properly with the most recent version of I7. I looked over the documentation for the extension once again. I would need to have a much better understanding of I7 to be able to port The Adventures of Phoebe McGee to I7 with Adventure Book.
This story has quite a few variables and some fairly sophisticated page and link scripts. And there is still much to learn to effectively use the tools at chooseyourstory.com.
No doubt I could use the “Running Inform Code” as part of the Adventure Book to duplicate all of that, but I will not have the patience or frustration tolerance to figure out how to do this. As it currently stands, Adventure Book in I7 does not have the complexity of what is available at chooseyourstory.com.
The problem with using a website to develop the story is facing a horrendous task of editing later. The writer does not create and save a file locally. There is no search and replace. Someone has to be online to read it.
Even with these liabilities, I’m impressed with the CYOA that can be created at chooseyourstory.com. I like using pictures for each page. I’m still trying to figure out scripts but see their potential. The next time (if there is another time) I will need to write everything beforehand and make sure it’s ROCK solid before putting it into the website format. And then hope that the early readers don’t find mistakes because most are going to be difficult to find unless accompanied by page titles.
So now I’m focusing on finding and correcting the minor mistakes in the current story, listening to comments, and taking time to decide on the next effort. I may focus on writing short stories for 4-8 year olds who have parent help.
I have learned a lot from those who posted in this thread and appreciate your help. I am looking forward to Neo’s extension. Thanks!
Hey Chuck,
I’m sure you’ve looked into this already, but, if you haven’t, you might want to check out the terms and conditions of using Choose Your Story. Effectively, they now can do anything they like with Phoebe…
Thanks Neo.
Of course I’m not fond of this kind of statement buried somewhere on their website.
I can imagine their motivations for doing so are not nefarious but have something to do with making their site available to the general public. I don’t think they are looking to harvest stories for their own commercial use.
If the movie “The Adventures of Phibber Maglee” shows up in the theater or the TV feature of the week I’ll contact my lawyer. 
I write and publish for the general public as part of my professional work at the university. Phoebe is actually part of that work. The project is unusual (odd perhaps), but according to U.S. law I don’t believe a statement like that allows them to take my work and claim ownership. They own the code used on their website and the “engine” that “drives” the story (that’s what “Contents” might mean in the statement). They would be in their rights to simply delete all of Phoebe if they want (that possibility makes me nervous). They should have that kind of control. If I want to take my words and put them into a different format, I could do that. In other words, they do not own what I said but do own the way it’s said.
In the past I have had colleagues tell me that I cannot copyright what I write at the university. That is wrong unless it’s done as a contractual work for hire (like what’s done with many federal publications). But I am obliged to allow the university to have control over distributing or making available what I’ve written.
Now what does this mean for me right now? First of all, so good to have the statement you sent me. I may start a thread in their forum about it and see what pops up. Second, would I write another story at the website? I don’t know. It gives me pause. More important is traction for what I’ve done. If Phoebe doesn’t get it (being read and making a difference) I will not invest the time required to do another. The idea that a CYOA type story could make money makes me chuckle.
Thanks again for taking the time to inform me about this.
It’s really not that far-fetched idea: Choice of Games sells their products for smartphones. I don’t know what their sales figures are but I do suspect they’re significantly more than zero.
Juhana,
Of course you are right. With all the new opportunities for delivery, why not see writing such fiction as generating income.
I enjoyed looking at the Choice of Games website. I didn’t go deep into any of the stories but the one I looked at seemed to be functional. Never asked to pay. I also liked their simple rationale for the CYOA format.
Another opportunity for writers. I hope their program has some of the sophistication found at chooseyourstory.com. Items and variables used in scripts are very useful.
Thanks for letting me know.
I looked at the docs for ChoiceScript at Choice of Games. It does appear to have both variables and scripts. So I’m going to dig a little deeper and do some experimenting with it. I’ll try porting Lilly first. Nice to see the option.
Not to mention U-Ventures, official CYOA, Fighting Fantasy, and an awesome Aussie series Gamebook Adventures… Just to name the commercial ones. All of these are available on the iStore.
In fact, arguably, CYA/gamebooks are more commercially viable right now than full-blown interactive fiction.
I’m guessing Zarf hopes to kick that trend a little in the other direction. 
Greetings all.
I have now examined the 261 pages and the 494 links in the story and hopefully corrected all the spelling and grammar errors. It also has 58 variables and 71 scripts. Whew!
I have enjoyed all the comments in this thread. Thanks for caring.