Brothers - A Tale of Two Sons

To expand on that a little:

If you’re coming from the assumption that there’s no real problem with inclusion and representation of gender in computer games, and that works that are sexist and damaging are rare anomalies, then it doesn’t make a lot of sense to look closely at depictions of gender in every game, unless that game is all ‘hey! I want to talk about this!’ Accusing a game of having sexist elements becomes a strong and extraordinary claim - if genuinely sexist games are rare, their authors must be extraordinarily sexist, right?

If, on the other hand, you come from the assumption that gender inclusion and representation is a pervasive and serious problem, then it makes sense to apply a closer level of scrutiny. Individual games should be considered, not just on their own merits, but as products of and contributors to a larger pattern. Depictions of women become, not a special thing that any given artist may, or may not have a particular interest in; they’re something that every artist has a responsibility to consider, because a perfectly well-intentioned artist may end up doing really sexist things just because they’re the norm.

(post removed as being something the original poster regrets, apologises for and wishes to dissociate himself from)

To take the discussion in a slightly different direction, what could the game have done differently without losing its core? I think the troll couple could have traded places easily - that wouldn’t have made any difference to the story. (But as I said earlier, those two characters felt pretty equal to me anyway.) The inventor with the flying machine could also have been a woman without hurting the story in any way. His gender doesn’t matter, so he’s just “default male”. Those changes could have dealt with much of dfabulich’s objections, while not at all damaging the game that I and Peter loved.

The spider and the mother on the other hand would change things a lot if they were changed. (I’m out of my depth in this discussion, so I’ll stop there.)

Theoretically it could, but the image of the male mad inventor is rather ingrained in our imaginarium. You think of a mad inventor, you come up with a very specific image (and very specific hair!) of a certain guy.

Though that also makes it the ideal place to subvert those ideals a little, to subtly insert a new default. Hmm…

That reminds me of another part of the interview with Fares I linked to earlier. On the subject of change, he mentioned having moved his paper towels at home as an experiment. Six months later, he still went to the old place first. “When such an unimportant habit is difficult to change, one understands how hard it is to think new when it comes to things that matter.” “As an example, I have realised that I have had a strange view on what’s male and female. Feminism used to be a loaded subject to me. I used to think it was tedious when someone brought it up. I couldn’t see that men and women were treated differently. But now that I’ve realised that’s the case, it’s very obvious how much we’re formed by our stereotypical gender norms.”

(My quick translation, but hopefully, you’ll get the point.)

Exactly so.

In my (authorial) experience, side characters are particularly prone to problematic tropes, because you’re not giving them the love and attention you might give to a main character. So instead of carefully working out this character’s story bible, you came up with him between two sips of coffee in order to fill the needs of a particular scene, and the lack of mental effort results in a cliche.

I’ve been trying an exercise lately, when I come up with a default NPC, of flipping one of the salient features of that stereotype. Automatically imagine a wild-haired young man in this type of role? Try making him older, or a woman, or someone with impeccable grooming. Sometimes the results truly do not fit or are tricky to narrate*, but often it gives a more interesting substrate to work with.

  • A specific case of the “problems narrating” category: I find it’s easy to casually flip genders on minor NPCs in written IF, and relatively easy to communicate that someone is non-straight, by giving them a same-gendered partner or interest in same.

I find it a lot harder to casually flip ethnicity, because then I have to say (somehow) “this character is black” or “this character is Asian”. Fine: but then I have another problem, because I don’t want to have a story in which minority races are called out as Other while white characters pass by without remark; I also don’t want a story where I’m communicating race through secondary stereotypes, e.g. by having characters speak in exaggerated dialect or wear strongly stereotyped clothing; and, on the other hand, most of my stories aren’t so much about race that it makes sense to have every character’s race be explicitly narrated all the time. Sometimes it’s possible to clue this kind of thing with a character’s name, and it’s usually pretty solvable with significant characters, but if it’s a minor NPC whose name is never presented?

I haven’t resolved this to my satisfaction. There’s a character in Counterfeit Monkey I decided should be black. I tried various ways to indicate this in the text without making it seem as though Alex (the narrator) thinks in terms of “people” vs “black people”. I experimented with some different descriptions and bits of dialogue that might clue it in more gently, but they all felt super ham-handed. So I took the references out again, but I am sad about it and I feel like I need to give this problem more thought so I can do better next time.

What I want is to communicate “contrary to expectations you might have about game worlds, this game world contains people of color, for example this character here” without communicating “contrary to expectations you might reasonably have about human beings, this character is not white”.

However, if you play Monkey, please do mentally fill in that some of the characters are people of color. That will be closer to my concept than if you default them all to white.

Emily, perhaps you could simply include graphical feelies that depict certain characters as non-white? Doesn’t really help for minor NPCs, of course, but I can’t imagine any way to resolve your problem with text alone. Good luck, though, if it can be done I’m sure you’ll figure it out.

Sorry if I missed you saying this, but did you consider just stating absolutely everyone’s ethnicity/race/colour in every case? You said it would make sense to narrate everyone’s race, and tried various subtle ways, but that they weren’t graceful. It’s easy to imagine they wouldn’t be. Conventionally in the ideology and aesthetics of writing which reflects lived reality today, stating the race at every introduction would seem bizarre, and is non-subtle – except that you’re working in sci-fi/fantasy. It’s possible there to show that the character sees the race of each person equally by having them state it in the narration in 100% of introductions, and it’s a genre where people will quickly accept such a tic, I think. Obviously you wouldn’t always do it at the exact first moment of contact, but, you know, you’re a writer of great skill, I don’t need to spell it all out : ) Maybe it wouldn’t work. I certainly haven’t tried it myself.

The funny thing about giving in (which sounds judgmental, but is not intended that way - bear with me) in a situation like this is that you didn’t get to make the character you wanted to be black, black. Not because of any qualities of the character, but just because of language, and a progressiveness which actually tripped you on this small thing. Or maybe it’s less small if you wanted to indicate characters of more races are in the game than you feel you did. It’s hard to make some points about race and the ideology and structure of language without actually just making the points. I’m just raising these ideas for speculation. I’m speculating on an alternate take on your game, not the game you did make, which is obviously thoroughly considered.

-Wade

At least in CM, I think it’s not SF/fantasy enough for that not to seem still pretty weird – many aspects of the culture are very very close to ours now, and others are like the more authoritarian extremes of ours. So I think overtly pointing out everyone’s race would have given the impression that Atlantis is a highly race-conscious place, which given how dystopian it otherwise is, would probably have come across just as straight-up racist; when what I actually wanted was to say “although this place has many very creepy policies, they are centered on use of language, and skin color is very much a secondary concern”.

I dunno.

Which is exactly my big concern. You are so over-conscious of the whole thing it’s damaged your work, in that you were unable to communicate to your satisfaction that some characters are not white. Sure it’s a puzzle for authors to solve, but I really hate it when it paralyses them.

There are two reasons why I think this is a good idea (although probably not for every single character, that’d be overkill. Hopefully a few key cases, carefully chosen, including major, minor and scenery-only NPCs, should suffice). First, everyone has a default in their head - I suppose a black person would have a black default (though since for so long the default has been “white male”, as Maga pointed out, a black person’s default might actually be white, which is rather sad and, I suppose, the whole point of this discussion), and suddenly Atlantis is populated only by black people . That’s no what you want, either. If you want diversity, you do indeed have to spell it out somehow.

Second reason, you wouldn’t necessarily be giving anyone any extra screen time, as it were; you wouldn’t really be drawing attention to their race. I know it’s harder in CM, where the narrator is a character, so if a character points out the race it might sound race-conscious… but it doesn’t have to. The narrator isn’t blind; people do are of a different colour, however little that might mean in the long run. It’s not just colour, either, it’s features - it’s very easy to tell an Italian from a Norwegian from a Mexican (ethnicity, as you were saying). Again, in a fantasy world it’s hard to tie in real-world ethniticities, but all those different people MUST have come from different places. So you enhance the feeling of huge diversity and acceptance by making it clear that all those people are there, without giving any specific character any extra screen time.

I suppose you could focus on particular features as they become available. Pale skin and blond hair can easily be described in an outdoors environment as reflecting the sun, dark eyes and eyebrows can lend extra power to a stare or a frown while blue eyes can be particularly quizzical or particularly penetrating. Narratively, you could say that a certain character reminds Alex of some and such people, because of, among other things, their colour - their specific colour, as there are very many ranges. From pink to white to orange; from brown so light it’s almost caucasian to pure deep sunburnt black. Not to mention having the features of a race but not having the colour, which I find absolutely beautiful - a white face with all the features of african ethnicity; a deep dark face that it otherwise completely european; a dark face that is also asian, or an asian face tinged with colour, or with an european nose, or any other mix. Beautiful.

It IS a distinctive feature of the characters, is what I mean. It saddens me that you were so aware of the problem, so self-conscious, that it forced you to release your work in a state you’re not entirely happy with, and that’s what really worries me about the whole thing, even now that I’ve seen that there probably is a problem whether or not I’ve encountered (or recognised) it.

I mean, if you don’t describe any of it, it doesn’t exist. This is something I learned a long time ago in Dramaturgy, and I find it holds true to any work: if the work doesn’t specify something, it doesn’t exist. If the work doesn’t specify, directly or indirectly, that a character is white, or black, or polka dots yellow, then they’re not: they are the most likely default for that period and that time. If that default historically allows for a different colour, fine; otherwise, no. Grace Bumbry, one of the blackest opera singers in the world, famously became ghostly-white for her portrayal of Lady Macbeth - in that period, a black Scottish lady isn’t just unlikely, it’s almost preposterous (and I should add Bumbry had already done become famous for being the Black Venus in Tannhäuser in Bayreuth, which was a scandal at the time for the most racist of reasons, and yet she gained over all her naysayers. I don’t remember if she was actually just black or painted completely gold; she’s known as the Black Venus nonetheless, be it by actual makeup or simply being African-American). This holds true for everything; is a character’s age is not specified, that character then must fall into a default, the one most likely to have been the author’s intentions. If the historical context and the actual play allow for a different age, or race, or gender, or whathaveyou, of course you can extrapolate and change; knowing full well, of course, that that doesn’t change the fact that the author probably had something else entirely in mind. It’s fine to read something else into the work as long as you keep in mind what the work was originally about. It’s fine to have a black Hamlet in French (I saw that, actually, staging by Peter Brook, and it was brilliant), as long as you remember that that’s historically impossible, in play and author’s mind; it’s an interesting diversion, it’s a Hamlet, a valid Hamlet, but it can’t possibly be the Hamlet. And I’m comfortable with saying this because, barring Derek Jacobi’s, Peter Brook’s Hamlet (dunno if it’s been filmed), with all I say about not being a “proper” Hamlet, is one of the very best I’ve ever seen.

(EDIT - it HAS been filmed. Here it is in English, though; I saw it on stage in french. Same actor, I think. youtube.com/watch?v=skNMOIvMSfQ. Peter Brook was very intelligent, it’s not “Hamlet” but “The Tragedy of Hamlet”. Meaning, it’s the STORY of Hamlet, not necessarily “Hamlet, Prince of Denmark” as it was originally written and imagined. This opens a lot of doors. Well done, that man)

(to be fair, this has made me insensible to some things which the author DID mean to imply, but did so too subtly for me to pick up on. For many years I thought the “gay undercurrents” of GK2 were a preposterous claim, I saw only a male bonding that need not necessarily be homosexual. I stuck to that until I saw JJ herself say it was intentional, and then I felt a right fool)

I digress; if you don’t describe diversity, it isn’t there, and your world is populated by defaults. If that’s not what you want, you actually have to indicate so.

An aside - sometimes I look around me and I see so many foreigners, or so many Portuguese black people, I get the overpowering feeling I’m in another country, or that I’m an interloper, a stranger in my own land. I have that feeling because Portuguese people are generally white - or were, until the aftermath of the Colonial Wars. A lot of black people in Portugal nowadays are 100% Portuguese (European, if you prefer), but the previous generation carries a lot of their culture with them, visibly. I feel like I’m in Angola or Mozambique sometimes. This is not bad, simply something that does happen, because though I might not be race-conscious, I’m not blind either, and I can recognise a different culture when it’s all around me. In the other possible case, the non-Portuguese European people, I just get the feeling I’m severely dislocated. In the middle of a German group of tourists, for instance, I feel positively barbaric, like I was a little savage being visited by the Royal family.

What I mean to say is: race and ethnicity do matter, they carry a hell of a lot of weight, because we’re not blind and we’re not completely dissociated from human history and cultural baggae. We shouldn’t try to hide that away, surely - it’s not negative in itself.

Oddly enough, or not, going back to the original discussion of gender equality, I don’t feel anywhere like this in the middle of a group of women. Gender leaves me completely unphased.

I wouldn’t put it that way at all. It’s true I wish I had come up with a good way to communicate this information that didn’t make me cringe, but that’s on me. In general, “think carefully about what you’re writing and what that might communicate to players” isn’t an unfair imposition to put on authors – that’s pretty much what the job is.

In this case, if the character’s race had been more critical to the character or the story, it would also have been easier to work in, because there would have been a reason for the narrator to bring it up.

Yeah, agreed, I did think about that even as I wrote, but I’m always wary of an author losing him/herself in the process, sacrificing potentially interesting characters or situations for fear of offending someone.

But I’m probably being far too assertive, considering all my authorial attempts were abortive and private, and I’m talking with a prolific, hard-working, widely recognised and acclaimed author… :stuck_out_tongue: I should take my own advice from a few posts back, “if I’m so full of great ideas why I don’t write agame myself?”.

This makes me sad. Can’t the audience suspend disbelief about whether the physical person they’re seeing represents the character in every respect? I mean, a Lady Macbeth who is recognizably Russian rather than Scottish is fine, a Lady Macbeth who speaks Italian is fine, a Lady Macbeth who sings every time she wants to communicate is fine; but a Lady Macbeth with black skin is not historically accurate enough? Unless she puts on whiteface, and then it’s convincing? I hope in the past fifty years or so we’ve moved beyond that.

Historical accuracy is paramount in Shakespeare. It’s very important for the audience to understand that there are not now, nor have there ever been, black people living on the coast of Bohemia.

Also, maybe a shade unlikely, but not exactly preposterous:

Whoa, Peter, you edited a lot of extra content into that post I replied to.

Re. defaults, and the invisibility of that which is non-default but not marked as such: I think the specific issue that is tricky for me is precisely the case where I am trying to undermine the “default = young ablebodied white straight cis-gendered male of at least adequate means” equation, but don’t actually have a lot of additional story purpose to the choice besides that. As soon as there is a bigger point to be made, it becomes easier to figure out how to include that information.

(post removed as being something the original poster regrets, apologises for and wishes to dissociate himself from)

Emily said it was difficult to give elegant clues to indicate race that didn’t make the character seem racially focused. In that case it almost seems best to write a character with ambiguous traits and let the reader project the character how they like. I mean, who can say that the adventurer in Zork was white? Or a male? Perhaps sometimes less description can invite the reader into the story more so than specifying straight male 18-35 characters all the time.

Grand Inquisitor I think lampshades this.

Memorably and brilliantly, to the extent that we immediately recognise and possibly even use AFGANCAAP as a term.

But, in Zork, given the panorama of the time, it’s a safe bet everyone who worked on it imagined a male adventurer - which might be totally meaningless because, up until Enchanter, the text is completely gender-neutral. I find it easier, in fact, to imagine a female adventuress in Adventure than in Zork.

Since the discussion came this way one should probably mention Jigsaw, for completion’s sake. Nelson makes a point of never overtly stating anything; instead it’s by carefully choosing his words that he downplays the genders to the extent that it’s completely gender neutral (though I’ve read that there’s a scenario or two in there that could only have happened historically to a male PC. Doesn’t bother me, the game is so complex I can imagine it was just a little slip), and therefore the romance can be either hetero- or homosexual.

Which kinda undermines my point about diversity having to be specified. Damned. Thwarted again.

This from TVTropes (which has becomes tropes in general, not just on TV) which is one of my favorite sites to research works that may influence a WIP.

(“Tomato Surprise” is a work where the the climax is at least partially dependent on the protagonist discovering their own actual identity.)

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M … n.AFGNCAAP